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View Full Version : Who would win? (READ FIRST POST)



SSJ Ranulf
December 4th, 2010, 05:44 PM
We've all asked it before. "Who would win in a fight between 'X' and 'Y'?" This thread is intended to discuss cross-continuity match-ups and why you think one side would win.

A good match-up is one where it isn't completely obvious who would win the fight. Neither side should be able to beat the other in one shot. You can choose one person per side, or you can have small teams (it's easier to discuss a 3 vs 1 fight than a 10 vs 10 fight). Characters change in power and ability over time, so you can choose to specify a particular point in the game/movie/story/series you are referencing.

Avoid choosing characters who it is possible to test against each other. You could match Zelda (SSBB) against Bowser (Super Mario Galaxy 2), but you shouldn't match Zelda (SSBB) against Bowser (SSBB). Cases you could test can--and will--have different results every time.

Treat this discussion like a friendly debate. The more supporting facts you have for your case, the better off you will be. Try to rely on things we have seen the character do. If the character comes from a game, stick to things that happen every (or virtually every) time the game is played. Maybe you can defeat a boss without being hit once, but it's not really a valid argument compared to something that happens in a cutscene, or something you have to do to advance the boss fight (or the game as a whole).

Here's a simplified example. The parts in bold are good examples of supporting facts (you will not need to format real posts like this):

Would Link from Ocarina of Time be able to stand up in a fight against Donkey Kong? DK is strong enough to throw barrels around with ease, and he is stated as weighing 800 lbs in DK64. However, Link is able to fight armies of Ganondorf's minions without breaking a sweat.

Are you thinking of Young Link or Adult Link? Young Link is strong enough to uproot plants, but he isn't strong enough to move big rocks. He was also casually cast aside by one of Ganondorf's magic attacks, so he probably wouldn't do so hot.

Yeah, you're probably right. Adult Link might have a better chance, though. It takes some gear to do it, but he is strong enough to move boulders, and at toward the end of the game, he can even lift rock pillars. Even if he just has the Silver Gauntlets, he should be able to more or less match DK's strength. With the Golden Gauntlets, he could throw DK all over the place.

That's the general flow of things.

Other guidelines:
- Be careful with memes/fads. A serious discussion is a lot more fun than things like, "MUDKIPZ VS AWESOME FAEC????" "OH YEAH MUDKIPZ WINZ BECAUSE EVERYONE LOVES MUDKIPZ". When in doubt, avoid these.
- It's okay for a few different match-ups to be discussed at once, but try not to overdo it. Other sites have historically had a separate thread for every match-up, but there's no reason for us to end up with 50,000 small threads for similar conversations. If the discussion seems crowded, wait for it to cool down before adding another match-up.
- Don't panic or get angry if your match-up gets skipped in favor of others. If a match-up gets very little discussion, you can bring it up again later.
- If you start a match-up, be the first one to offer your thoughts. It's not very polite to ask and then expect everyone else to fill in the details. Also, if you're going to make a new match, please at least try to comment on another match or two. It's common courtesy.
- Anyone from any point in any series (within reason) could be chosen. There will be spoilers. You have been warned.
- Be careful of Unknowns. If someone has never battled anyone OR had something said about their abilities, we have no idea how strong they may or may not be. An example of this would be any of the villagers in Kakarako Village in Zelda, as they never can be involved in the action.
- Official Statements > Feats > In world statements > Game Play Elements.

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Here's a match-up to get us started:

Mario (Sunshine) vs. Dedede (SSBB) at the Fountain of Dreams.

It seems like both Mario and Dedede can jump several times their own heights... but Dedede is much taller, so I'd say he jumps higher. Mario is hurt by things like Hammer Bros attacks and being charged by any number of minions, so I imagine that Dedede would pwn him with a few hammer strikes, as they've been stated to be able to smash buildings. In terms of durability, Dedede can resist all kinds of attacks from Kirby (fire, bombs, hammers, swords, etc.) I see no reason to think that Mario could out hammer or fire Kirby in raw power, so Dedede could likely stand up to a very large amount of hits and keep on trucking. As for speed, Mario moves pretty quick in his games (what enemies can out run him?), while Dedede always moves slower then Kirby, and is really slow in Brawl, so I'd think Mario dusts him.

However, Mario has FLUDD. I don't think the Hover Nozzle will help him much (it's not very fast), but the other ones will. With the Turbo Nozzle, Mario would utterly run circles around his own normal speed, so Dedede would be totally outclassed. And with the Rocket Nozzle, Mario would just fly above Dedede's maximum jump heights. Considering this, and the fact that the 3De is much stronger, tells me that Mario would be using hit-and-run tactics against, well Dedede would be just waiting for Mario to get close.

Overall, I see Mario wining in a long fight, by slowly wearing Dedede down. However, if Dedede can isolate Mario from the water around the fountain (or possibly drink it) early on, he'll win; Mario just can't stand up to Dedede in a straight fight.

Agent Gold
December 4th, 2010, 05:44 PM
I'm going to use this post to keep an index of the match-ups that have been discussed. (I'm online more often than Ranulf, so it will be easier for me to keep it current.) I will update as often as I am able to.

Major discussions will be listed in bold. Links direct you to the post where the discussion began.

Mario (Sunshine) vs. Dedede (SSBB) - Post 1 (http://www.brawlinthefamily.com/forum/showthread.php?2586-Who-would-win-(READ-FIRST-POST)&p=136845&viewfull=1#post136845)
The Witch King vs Jadis - Post 3 (http://www.brawlinthefamily.com/forum/showthread.php?2586-Who-would-win-(READ-FIRST-POST)&p=138705&viewfull=1#post138705)

Eruedraith
December 5th, 2010, 09:33 PM
Here's a matchup I wrote up a while back:

For fairness, I'm going to put both characters at full power - The Witch King's at the height of his reign in Angmar, and Jadis is ruler of Charn.

The White Witch - A Summary

Whitey is more powerful than you might think. When you first think of her, you just pass her off as just another fairy tale villain, imprisoning talking animals in eternal winter. Turns out that's pretty hard. More on that later. Anyways, her magic is extremely powerful. VERY. POWERFUL. Why? Well, she can turn anyone to stone with a tap of her wand - which is probably the only thing that can kill the Witch-King in her armory. Again, I'll get to that later.

Okay. So, we know that Narnia is flat from The Voyage of the Dawn Treador. So, the seasons cannot come from the tilt of a spherical planet as we know it. So, seasons must come from somewhere else. Does it orbit a sun? Or does a sun orbit it? Keep in mind, this is the world where stars are old men with beards, so astrophysics isn't really that much of a concern here. Anyways, there are two or three ways to keep the world in eternal winter (or at least for a century).

A): If Narnia is orbiting a sun, the Witch must stop it from doing so, and keep it locked in place. Until it gets too cold, and then she must allow for a slight 'summer' time that keeps Narnia at that heavenly 10 degrees Fahrenheit. That means that she has to always be in complete control of where Narnia is, how fast it's moving, etc. Not easy. And do we ever see adverse side effects? Nope.

B): A sun is orbiting Narnia. This is a little more plausible in the world of Narnia: Whitey threatens the sun (which is a star, and thus sentient) with death, if it doesn't just stay in one place forever. Again, you need to create snaps of warm weather to keep the world from turning into Hoth. And you're going to need some real power to be able to threaten a star.

C): Either of the above. The Witch is controlling the amount of gases, such as Ozone, Co2, and other things, in the atmosphere, to manipulate the weather. It's summer? Oops, the ozone layer just doubled. Or something like that. I'm not an astrophysicist, but I'm pretty sure that it's feasible. Again, constant maintenance and concentration on the atmosphere would be critical.

D): Any of the above circumstances, but she simply just uttered a word that stopped winter. But you'd need considerable power and knowledge to find something so obviously strong, so this does little to take away from her own prowess.

Conclusion: She's very powerful.

The Deplorable Word is a problem for the King. Able to kill everything except the one who says it in Charn, the Deplorable Word is easily the deadliest weapon available to the Witch. However, this is only that deadly when done with 'certain rituals' - rituals that the Witch-King would interrupt with extreme prejudice.

We know from The Magician's Nephew that Jadis is a half-giant or something like that, seven feet tall, and strong enough to yank a lamp post from the ground and use it like a baseball bat. She's strong enough to break iron, steel, and many metals, though I'm sure mithril would give her a run for her money. So, the Witch-King's armor's potency is reduced against that. She wields the Stone Knife and her wand, which are at their most effective at hand-to-hand combat. The Knife is essentially useless against the King, however, though the wand probably isn't. Why? Well, the Knife isn't made by the Men of the West, which are the best things for killing Witch-Kings, as we know from The Return of the King. And I don't see her holding a Numenorian blade at any time in the future. So her wand's her best bet. Too bad it can be broken like a twig by a kid with a lucky swing. This can tell us that she's not the most skilled of close-quarters combatants.

Oh, and as a certain shieldmaiden and halfling pointed out, the two biggest weaknesses of the Witch-King are females and nonhumans. Did I mention that she's both?

The White Witch - Pros and Cons

Pros:

Faster (unarmored)

Wand

Strength

Magical Power

Female

Nonhuman

Cons:

Unarmored

Less skill in close-range combat

Can only kill with Wand

Will be hard-pressed to get into Wand range (more on that later)

The Witch-King of Angmar - A Summary

In terms of magical abilities, the WK's not as strong as Whitey is. However, he is strong enough to be able to confront Gandalf on more-or-less even terms, which is more than most can say. He's been trained in sorcery by the best of the best - Sauron. However, in feats seen in the novels, he is certainly less spectacular than Whitey. The biggest thing that he pulls is helping Grond break the formidable Gates of Minas Tirith. It's pretty safe to assume that he at least tripled the force that Grond struck with, comparing damage from the first, raw Grond hit and the successive, enchanted hits. That's nothing to laugh at. But it's safe to assume that the Witch is going to be able to match him at a range, what with her freezing abilities and such.

He's very, very powerful at medium- to close-range, however. He's at least as strong as Jadis is, what with his enormous mace and cursed blades. One hit against the unarmored Witch with his mace, and good-bye Jadis. She's definitely quicker, though, but it's safe to assume that she won't be able to avoid the mace forever. In the unlikelihood of being able to break the handle of the mace, she's got to deal with the Morgul Blade and sword - and I'm certain that a former Numenorian king is going to be able to outdo Jadis at swordplay. Add in the fact that he's armored, and he's got a clear advantage. The only thing that I can see beating him is the wand - easily broken. The question is, would she be able to somehow freeze the armor of the King to slow him down and be able to petrify him? Good question.

Remember, he's destined to never die by a Man.... but a female giantess? Perhaps.

The Witch-King of Angmar - Pros and Cons

Pros:

Strength

Armor

Superior Range

Morgul Blade (good counter to Stone Knife - easily better)

Better swordplay

Cons:

That Pesky Prophecy (and the fact that he didn't read the fine print)

Slower

The Conclusion:

With a completely unbiased decision? A draw. He'd probably end up being able to kill her, but what with the prophecy, she'd probably petrify him with her last breaths. But he'd simply reform..... So in short? The Witch-King's got the advantage overall.

SSJ Ranulf
December 5th, 2010, 10:04 PM
I'll admit to having never heard of Jadis before, although I have seen the Witch-King. For this post, I will be going entirely by the information given about the characters by Eruedraith.

I'm going to have to say that without any prep-time, Witch-King wins fairly easily. His physical strength is very immense, and his weapons are even more terrifying. However, his biggest feat is holding off the god-dammed Gandalf the White. Gandalf the Grey was able to hold his own against the Balrog, which (if I am right) was pretty much stated to be second only to Saron in terms of power on the villains side. If I've heard correctly, only Gandalf and one other creature (an ancient and extremely powerful elf, if memory serves) where able to face the Balrog. This tells us that Gandalf the Grey was one of the absolute strongest creatures of his world.

Then he came back even stronger as Gandalf the White. If I am right, Gandalf the White was immune to normal weapon damage, and was more powerful then Saruman. Saruman was able to do amazing feats with his magic, such as almost blowing the Fellowship of the Ring off of a mountain by summoning a storm from an extremely far distance away. And Gandalf was more powerful then him (again, If my memory is working).

Assuming that the Witch-King is even with Gandalf the White, he could likely beat Jadis both physically and magically without any prep-time. He's just to strong to be beaten head on, and likely has enough magic to defend himself while closing in for a few killing blows.

However, when we give them preparation time, it changes. I don't really know enough about either character to tell what they could do with a ritual and some time, but I don't imagine the Witch-King can counter an instant kill. If Jadis really has the power to kill anyone with a single word, and to perhaps stop control a celestial body, then I just can't see Witch-King summoning a powerful enough spell to defend himself. However, all of my facts might not be straight.

Tl;dr: Without Prep Time: Witch-King with little difficulty. With Prep-Time: Jadis with no difficulty.

9kirby99
December 10th, 2010, 07:03 PM
I think Dedede would win. FLUDD may be useful, but he could just spin,spin,spin and hit mario and his attacks with ease. Mario would do better with a partner, or the poltergust 3000.