Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 85

Thread: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

  1. #1
    resident asshole cyanide_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Tuesday, Mar 2 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    811

    Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    Own opinions itt:

    It's a &&&&ing travesty that this is going on and the west at large is still on israel's side, although this is slowly shifting with israel becoming even worse with their actions and having a democrat as president of the usa, although they aren't much better than republicans.

    The fact that there are 11 million palestinians worldwide and 6 million of them are either displaced or the descendents of displaced palestinians is appalling. These displacement have been down to wars with israel.

    Neither the west bank or gaza has control over its own water, land, airspace, airwaves, electrics, borders, building permits or imports and exports. Again this is appalling and leads to massive problems for palestine.

    The wall just cuts stupidly across the west bank, isolating jerusalem, strangling movement of people and goods, threatening sovereignety. At best it's a giant wall keeping dirty palestinians out of israel. It's three or four times as high as the Berlin wall and several times its length.

    israel 'claims' that palestinians in israel get equality, they're shortchanged for federal education money, permits, threatened with loss of citizenship and subject to much racism.

    Many palestinians simply cannot go to where they were born and raised, they still hold the key to their home that was destroyed or settled by israelis. Land is an important part of Palestinian identity. It's ridiculous to speak about a two state solution wherein refugees are excluded, or to grant one group of Palestinians autonomy without granting autonomy to all Palestinians. IAW demands the right of return for all Palestinians, so that people may at least be able to go back and see their land again.


    Sure there are extremists on the palestinian side, particularly in Hamas, but the &&&& that Israel does is simply inexcusible, unless you're a member of free republic and think that all muslims should be killed no matter what.

    Personally I'm not to keen on the idea of creating Israel in the first place, hindsight is fantastic of course, but the idea of creating a new artificial state because a section of people has been extremely persecuted doesn't seem right. Of course this is a related issue, but shouldn't have a bearing on your thought on the current state of israel, it quite simply should not be able to do what it is doing, lives are being lost needlessly and Israel still gets massive funding from the west.


    Fantastic post that I've nicked because it's better than what I could do:



    What is Apartheid:
    In 1973, the UN General Assembly adopted the international Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid, a crime against humanity. The word ‘Apartheid’ means separation., ‘Apartheid’ is defined by the UN as “a system of institutionalized racial segregation and discrimination for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group over another and systematically oppressing them…” by: creating ghettos; land confiscation; bans on freedom of movement, speech assemblies and mixed marriages; illegal arrest and detention.

    The most famous example of Apartheid was South Africa, however with boycotts, sanctions, and massive international pressure it was ended. This is the end goal of this movement, not to kill all the Jews or wipe away Israel or whatever Fox News tells you what people who're critical of Israel want. The goal is to apply enough international pressure so that we either have a 1 state solution with full equal rights for both peoples or a 2 state solution where the Palestinians have full sovereignty and control of their own lands. But what we currently have is...



    Two Systems, Separate and Unequal
    * Palestinians are under Military Law and face the constant threat of arrest and detention without charge and can be held indefinitely. They have no right to representation or trial. Israelis living in illegal settlements on Palestinian land have all the privileges of Israeli Civil Law. As citizens of Israel, they can vote, seek redress in court, and have freedom of speech and assembly.

    * Palestinian villages and towns face collective punishment in the form of bulldozing of family houses, extended 24 hour curfews, closures, military raids, violence and harassment. Israeli settlers face no such collective
    punishment.

    * Palestinian land ownership (agricultural and residential) is subject to military and economic confiscation. The purpose is to establish Jewish only settlements, take water resources and confine the Palestinian population into smaller and smaller cantons. Israelis face no land confiscation.

    * Over 17,000 Palestinian houses have been demolished, creating 100,000 of thousands homeless. Over a million Palestinian olive and fruit trees have been uprooted. A few Israeli outposts have been dismantled, but there has been no
    widespread destruction of Israeli homes and trees.

    * Palestinians are prohibited from using the extensive network of settler only highways that connect the settlements to Israel.

    * Palestinian workers employed in settlement industrial zones receive only the sweatshop-like minimum wage mandated by Jordanian law in 1967. In the settlements,
    Israeli workers receive all the rights and benefits of Israeli employment law including a much larger minimum-wage.

    * The Israeli military authority controls virtually all the water in the West Bank. 73% of West Bank water is piped back to Israel. Illegal Jewish settlers use 10% of West Bank water. Palestinians have access to only 17% of their own water and must buy it from Israel at 4 times the price Israelis pay.

    * The wall fragments Palestinian communities; it separates families from their land, their livelihood, health care and schools. The wall also divides communities and families from each other. The wall does not fragment Israeli settlements; it is built in such a way to as to annex them to Israel proper.



    Therefore
    As we can see the legal rights and treatment you get in the region depends entirely on your race, these people live a stones throw away yet have drastically different rights, this manifests itself in health statistics such as the CIA factbook life expectancy ranking:
    Israel: 13
    West Bank: 89
    Gaza: 107

    This is &&&&ing appalling



    I'm not convinced, what do famous people think
    Nelson Mandela said...
    “injustice and gross human rights violations were being perpetrated in Palestine. In the same period the U% took a strong stand against apartheid; which helped to bring an end to this iniquitous system. But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians”. 1997

    Desmond Tutu said...
    “If you change the names, the description of what is happening in the Gaza Strip and the west bank would be a description of what is happening in the Gaza Strip and the west bank would be a description of what is happening in South Africa". 1989

    Jimmy Carter said...
    "When Israel does occupy this territory deep within the West Bank, and connects the 200-or-so settlements with each other, with a road, and then prohibits the Palestinians from using that road, or in many cases even crossing the road, this perpetrates even worse instances of apartness, or apartheid, than we witnessed even in South Africa." 2006



    I would like some pretty pictures
    Here you go...

    Palestinians are ghettoized in 12 percent of their original territory. The West Bank is divided up into 70 isolated cantons with no physical movement without Israel permission.
    There are over 500 military check points where Palestinians often wait hours, and must have ID cards and passes just to travel short distances. Israeli settlers can travel easily on Israeli-only roads.



    This dispossession is reminiscent of apartheid which setaside 13% of the lands as “Bantustan” homelands for black South Africans.



    How about a pretty video
    Here you go...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2vBv...layer_embedded



    b-b-b-but in 1933 a Muslim sold a knock off watch to a Jewish chap just off the boat
    Historical &&&& doesn't matter and belongs in another debate, this is about how Israel is currently treating people who have nothing to do with the conflict.



    b-b-b-but terrorists?
    1. The actions of various Palestinian groups are controversial, however when looking at such acts you have to take into account the circumstances that lead to them, a wild dog attacking passerbys is completely different than one lashing out at the person who has backed it into a corner in an attempt to kick it to death.
    2. The actions of Hamas in Gaza has no bearing on the Israeli treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, nor the treatment of the Arab citizens of Israel



    You're just an antisemite
    I would advise you to think very carefully about throwing this word around, to so closely identify your race/religion with a nation you may not even live in is a dangerous stance to take as you're throwing your identity in with the actions of a genocidal oppressive regime. Am I anti-Catholic if I condemn Argentine aggression towards the Falklands? Am I anti-Asian if I condemn the actions of the Junta in Burma? So why the gently caress am I an antisemite if I condemn the actions of the Israeli government towards the Palestinians?



    So what is the point of all this
    To raise awareness, who knows perhaps you might donate, or simply correct a misguided friend/parent if the topic ever comes up.

    International pressure will be what gets the Palestinian people justice, standing at the sidelines is not enough.



    What can I do/Where can I learn more:
    http://apartheidweek.org/ Is a fantastic resource you should all look at
    http://www.bdsmovement.net/ Get involved






    Villerar

    A large step towards the solution would be the end of the power of the arms lobby in the US, actually, which led to support of the hawkish elements in both the West and Israel.

    Anyway, I think another large part of the problem is Israel's vastly superior PR. After Israelian losses, we see a calm, but strong response. After Palestinian losses, we see screaing mobs. Such footages go a long way defining people'views. It is a great way to demonstrate how selective perception works.

    I think the following is safe to say about change:
    • It is best to start in Israel (so Israel should take initiative).
    • It is best directed by a change of ruling party (to Labour, Hadash or Meretz), but trends so far have not favoured Labour at all.

    Yes, I know Saudi-Arabia and Iran aren't helping to solve this situation, but the same can be said of France, the UK, the US, the USSR and some more countries.

    Of course Büber's alternative would be even better, but it is a pipedream nowadays.


    http://forums.somethingawful.com/sho...readid=3274245
    Last edited by cyanide_; March 4th, 2010 at 05:44 PM. Reason: added link and own opinions tm because i was a bit naughty!

  2. #2
    Administrator Forum Administrator fiftyeighthens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Monday, Mar 1 2010
    Posts
    194
    Great post. I've been following this subject for a while, and I would urge everyone to read this post (and apartheidweek.org) in depth.

    This is an issue that I think Americans in particular have a ton of misperceptions about, and I hope this effort can help to amend that.

    edit: Wait. Did you write the original thread on Something Awful?

    edit 2: Okay, the changes are sufficient. Everyone: be sure to give credit where it's due.

  3. #3
    Tornado Remix Lightningdork
    Forum Moderator
    Lightningboalt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Monday, Mar 1 2010
    Location
    The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
    Posts
    2,754
    Holy &&&&...

    Misperceptions are right. I knew that the Israelians had issues with the Palestinians but... Damn.

    This is really sickening. I'm not sure what has me angrier, the stuff I just witnessed and read about, or the fact that when I first learned about this conflict in my school, I learned that the PLO was nothing more than a group of vicious terrorists trying to retake the Palestinians' land in the most brutal ways possible. They've got nothing on the government of Israel itself, it seems... You'd have to act brutally to ever have a chance of combatting something as revolting, something as inhumane and utterly cruel as this.
    Official BitForums Patron Deity
    Skiploom Adventures is still a thing! Click here to read it!

    If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now
    Playstation 4: Making you feel emotions that you have never felt in real life.

  4. #4
    resident asshole cyanide_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Tuesday, Mar 2 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    811
    good news!

    Israel bulldozers return to beit jala

    netanyahu(israeli pm) had told them to stop a couple of days ago, but don't worry it's fine now

    Bethlehem – Ma'an – Dozens of Palestinians and foreign solidarity activists rallied near Bethlehem on Wednesday, in protest of the bulldozing of olive trees near a section of Israel's wall, which weaves through the occupied West Bank.

    Witnesses said Israeli forces used limited force against protesters who attempted to prevent the bulldozers from approaching the trees, planted in Beit Jala. Several demonstrators were dragged on the ground as they refused to leave, but no serious injuries were reported.

    Marwan Sha'ban of the local Popular Committee Against Settlements in Bethlehem said "we came here with our solidarity friends to say: stop attacking the land, uprooting trees, and forcing people out of their houses."

    Sha'ban termed any construction on privately owned land as illegal, but said the Beit Jala construction flaunted the law, noting previous remarks by Fayyad Nasser, a lawyer who represents the Beit Jala municipality.

    Nasser said Israeli authorities began bulldozing the land after notifying authorities just hours earlier. According to Israeli law, however, there is a 40 day period in which landowners can appeal the decision, he said.

    The Israeli authorities are working in a 300-donum area that includes over 2,000 olive trees, according to the Popular Committee, all owned by Palestinians in the predominantly Christian city that lies between Bethlehem and Jerusalem. Sha'ban said his committee would meet later Wednesday to discuss their options.

    An Israeli security source told Ma'an that the operation was fully coordinated with Palestinian Authority security forces. This was denied, however, by the Israeli Civil Administration, a branch of the country's Defense Ministry that oversees civilian affairs in the occupied territories.

    A Civil Administration spokesman said there was no cooperation with the PA on the particular operation in Beit Jala, but that security coordination between the two sides remained strong, in general, and particularly in Bethlehem. He said PA forces have no jurisdiction in the area in question.

    On Tuesday, Israeli forces enforced a closed military zone order to assist the operation, witnesses said. Journalists and cameramen were prohibited from accessing the area, as the frequently employed designation also applies to press coverage.

    Bulldozers began operating on lands near the Cremisan Monastery road, said Leila Awad, whose home is the only one in the area. Awad told Ma'an she was surprised to see the bulldozers, accompanied by police, on her land uprooting olive, walnut and lemon trees. Awad's home and those of 35 other families are threatened with demolition, according to the municipality.

    Israel maintains that the barrier prevents attacks. Palestinians say the wall's construction is effectively a land grab, as it annexes some 10 percent of the occupied West Bank into Israel, including several settlements built on Palestinian land.

    In 2004, the International Court of Justice in the Hague ruled that the wall, along its proposed route, causes needless suffering to the civilian population, cannot be justified by security, and violates international law.

    http://maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=265693

    oh also, amnesty international on the water situation:

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-u...water-20091027

  5. #5
    To vex the world rather than divert it. Villerar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Thursday, Mar 4 2010
    Location
    To your left
    Posts
    3,908
    I've been aware of this for quite some time, it's indeed dreadful.

    I generally ignore this issue a bit, because it often degenerates into a round of name calling (as you hinted to in the final paragraphs of your post).

  6. #6
    i already DID a barrel roll appleof88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Wednesday, Mar 10 2010
    Location
    Leicester Currently
    Posts
    10
    Man, i was really worried about what this post was going to contain........
    but it was a wonderfully well set out, thoughtful post.

    I work with the Amnesty International Society at uni, and for World Water Day, we're going to be handing out free water to everyone, with leaflets containing the issues of Palestine's lack of access to clean, fresh water. Hopefully it will help raise the issue around my campus.

    Remember, be critical of Israel not Israelis
    Remember, trust the fungus

  7. #7
    To vex the world rather than divert it. Villerar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Thursday, Mar 4 2010
    Location
    To your left
    Posts
    3,908
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightningboalt View Post
    I'm not sure what has me angrier, the stuff I just witnessed and read about, or the fact that when I first learned about this conflict in my school, I learned that the PLO was nothing more than a group of vicious terrorists trying to retake the Palestinians' land in the most brutal ways possible.
    The PLO is downright devillish, though, but that is not really the point of this topic. This topic is about how Israel treats Palestinians, not about how the PLO treats Israelian and Palestinians.

    Personally, I find it disturbing how clearing Palestinian settlements has become a business, in which people can even invest (well, they can invest in the contractors, dreadful enough in my eyes).

    What's even more dreadful is that encouraging divesting from such companies is anti-Semitic nowadays.

    I know a downright magnificent documentary on the selective perception issue, but there aren't any English translations of it.
    Last edited by Villerar; March 11th, 2010 at 09:19 AM.

  8. #8
    Wheelie Rider Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Tuesday, Mar 2 2010
    Posts
    408
    I meandered through this thread before (on something awful, of course). My opinion then and now can basically be summed up as:
    Quote Originally Posted by cyanide_ View Post
    It's a &&&&ing travesty
    I'm glad someone's brought it to the attention of BitF as well.

    Show me ya moves: 0877-0665-3997

  9. #9
    To vex the world rather than divert it. Villerar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Thursday, Mar 4 2010
    Location
    To your left
    Posts
    3,908

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    http://www.avaaz.org/en/independence...estine_9/?copy

    A very topical Avaaz petition. I encourage everybody to sign.

  10. #10
    Apparently a Stranger...But still Livin' Life Loud Kameron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Friday, Nov 19 2010
    Location
    That floating island in Cave Story....Or is it that floating island in Terraria?
    Posts
    60

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    WHOAH, NOW.

    I disagree. Yeah, you heard me, sue me.

    Israel is "racist" for several reasons. Reason #1: Muslims. Indeed, by faith the Muslim religion states that, in simple terms, Israelis should all die. Personally, I'd be pretty hostile to that as well.

    The second reason is pretty broad. They're fairly dang cautious. Guess why? Back when they were ancient the *Ehem* Palestinians...Um...Killed them. A lot. And took their land. Like...All of it.

    Then there were the Romans.

    Then there was WWII.

    And they finally get their land back! Or at least a small fragment of it. Ah yeah, and icing on the cake; Everyone hates their guts.
    To summarize: Israelis were killed and stuff since the beginning of time. And now everyone is ranting because they finally manage to fend for themselves, and not even completely.

    Oh, what about the murder and abuse they've been dishing out? Hmm...Well, let's see how often everyone else does that sort of thing. Guess what; They're human, they do that. So do Americans, Palestinians, and everyone else.

    So, another summary: Let's use me as an example. If I were beaten senseless ever since I knew how to walk and talk, then someone founded a religion that says God wants me dead, then I had my home taken from me, then I was beaten some more...Hm, I'd say I would be a pretty over-protective person too.

    Concerning the murders and innocents beaten, nobody knows the full stories. Who is to say those soldiers weren't punished? Who is to say there wasn't a reason behind it? Now, I must say the Israelis have their issues, like...Keeping the Palestinians but...They were kinda there first, and they kinda want to live.

    And the terrorists? Maybe I just overlooked something, and forgive me if you have indeed done so, but you seemed to fail to elaborate on that. From my perspective it seems that Israel is being cautious because of the fact that Muslim extremists use their own children to bomb people. Happy, isn't it? Totally not cowardly.

    Personal opinion: If someone wants to fight a religious war, fight a religious war. Don't use cowardly tactics or else the other side will retaliate accordingly.

    Sigh...I say all of this as I wear a Star of David and Cross necklace.

    Totally not weird at all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightningboalt View Post
    uh... did you miss the whole thing with the two rival gangs and the pair of pants?

  11. #11
    Putting a cap in your benefits Forum Moderator Superninfreak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Monday, Mar 1 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    2,784

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by Kameron
    Israel is "racist" for several reasons. Reason #1: Muslims. Indeed, by faith the Muslim religion states that, in simple terms, Israelis should all die. Personally, I'd be pretty hostile to that as well.
    I can't believe you just said that.

    What you just said is complete bigotry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kameron
    The second reason is pretty broad. They're fairly dang cautious. Guess why? Back when they were ancient the *Ehem* Palestinians...Um...Killed them. A lot. And took their land. Like...All of it.

    Then there were the Romans.

    Then there was WWII.

    And they finally get their land back! Or at least a small fragment of it. Ah yeah, and icing on the cake; Everyone hates their guts.
    You act like Israel losing their land and getting it back were close together. They were separated by thousands of years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kameron
    Concerning the murders and innocents beaten, nobody knows the full stories. Who is to say those soldiers weren't punished? Who is to say there wasn't a reason behind it?
    Then shouldn't the Israeli government tell people the soldiers were punished or why the soldier was justified

    You're just assuming Israel didn't do anything wrong without any evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kameron
    Now, I must say the Israelis have their issues, like...Keeping the Palestinians but...They were kinda there first, and they kinda want to live.
    The Israelis weren't there first actually. They once lived there (but again, they were not the first people there) and then they lost the land.

    Thousands of years after losing it (ie. they had no claim to it anymore) they took the land from the people who had lived there their whole lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kameron
    And the terrorists? Maybe I just overlooked something, and forgive me if you have indeed done so, but you seemed to fail to elaborate on that. From my perspective it seems that Israel is being cautious because of the fact that Muslim extremists use their own children to bomb people. Happy, isn't it? Totally not cowardly.
    Israel does more than just act cautiously, you're downplaying the stuff Israel does.

    And I don't think terrorists being horrible justifies Israel being horrible.
    "Have killed many, Shepard. Many methods. Gunfire, knives, drugs, tech attacks, once with farming equipment. But not with medicine." Mordin Solus, Mass Effect 2


  12. #12
    Member and Part Time Sun God Helios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Thursday, Jan 13 2011
    Location
    Colorado or Minnesota. Depends on the time of year
    Posts
    545

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    @Kameron

    Naturally, there are feelings of anger and revenge on both sides. Both sides parcicipated in wars for the land. The area has yo-yo'd back and forth for thousands of years, building resentment on both sides.

    But when does peace start? Originally, the theory of an 'eye for an eye' was meant not to foster revenge, but limit it. It seems to be human nature to say "Well, you poked out my eye, so I'm gonna gouge out both of yours." For a time, limiting it to equal retaliation worked, but it still made strife continue. A simple update to "turn the other cheek" (though not jewish, clearly) I think would be in order for the Isrealites. Yes, Palestine has done equally terrible things ages and ages ago. Don't take revenge on it. That's the way to peace. Share the land (and the Palestines would need to be peaceful then too.)

    But Palestinians have the right to defend themselves as this outrage continues.

    I fear that we might never have peace in the holy land, because fighting has been going on for so long and both sides feel the need for revenge.

    But I don't think the US should be supporting Israel's abuse of power right now. Israel may or may not have nuclear weapons. The Palestine's most certainly do not. That makes it pretty one sided, and somehow, in order for there to be peace without genocide first, there has to be some semblance of balance.

  13. #13
    Back in #000000 Someguyfromcrowd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Saturday, Mar 6 2010
    Location
    Halfway there
    Posts
    786

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    Thus going to show that Israel has gone from a nation I supported wholeheartedly to one I have trouble taking seriously. They appear, take land that can only be claimed as "theirs" by some highly roundabout means, then treat those living on it like dirt.

    There is practically no difference between current-day Israel and pre-1980s South Africa. You have the inequality, the injustice, and the indifference.

    What's really ticking me off is that the comments section of the Youtube video advertising Apartheid Week has devolved into racism and mindless shouting. It's appalling. The problem is not in Judaism or Islam as far as I am concerned. The problem is in the shady practices of the government in power and those who are making violence against the government.
    Last edited by Someguyfromcrowd; July 26th, 2011 at 07:44 PM.
    As stable as a six-membered alkyne ring and as predictable as an unsynchronized parallel cluster

  14. #14
    To vex the world rather than divert it. Villerar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Thursday, Mar 4 2010
    Location
    To your left
    Posts
    3,908

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    Israel's international conduct is also rather unseen among developed countries. The state has a long history of sending the Mossad to abduct people (first Nazi bigshots who fled to South Africa, but nowadays also people who expose Israel's illegal nuclear weapons program). I think only the Reagan years are comparable to that in the developed world.

    Israel utilises roughly 70% of the water pumped from West Bank aquifers for its own uses. Israeli settlers also use water from sources within the pre-1967 borders of the Palestinian territories, as stated in the OP. Israel has denied Palestinians independent access to the water of the Jordan river. Palestinian water projects are subject to the Israeli military. Israel charges a four times higher rate to Palestinian for water than to Israelis (as stated in the OP). There is much more to say about the water conflict, for which I refer to this factsheet.

    Also, roads built for the illegal Israeli settlements (you may not colonise occupied territory) on the West Bank are off bounds for Palestinians, hecne they are called "by-pass roads". This can sometimes divide Palestinian communities, greatly increasing the travel time. Not to mention the waiting times at checkpoints between Israeli and Palestinian areas. It is not rare for settlers to attack Palestinians and to vandalise their belongings, limiting local Palestinian access to water or destroying it altogether. Also read this on settlements.

    Israeli Arabs are treated as secondary citizens, both politically and with respect to civil rights. Muslims and Christians (whether Arab or Israeli) also face legal discrimination. Israel has a right of return for Jews, regardless of whether they are Judaist, agnostic or atheist, but this right is denied to Messianic Jews.

    There is much more to write about it, but I think I made a point, Kameron.
    Last edited by Villerar; July 27th, 2011 at 05:51 AM.

  15. #15
    Apparently a Stranger...But still Livin' Life Loud Kameron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Friday, Nov 19 2010
    Location
    That floating island in Cave Story....Or is it that floating island in Terraria?
    Posts
    60

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    Share the land (and the Palestines would need to be peaceful then too.)
    If it's about the land then it's not a matter of the "Eye for an eye" theory, it's a matter of (arguably, apparently) the "You broke into my house so instead of giving it to you I'm going to defend it" theory. But obviously people disagree that the Israelis were there first so, in an attempt to get out of this discussion (I'll say why later.) I'm going to not discuss the concept of "I saw it first."

    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    But Palestinians have the right to defend themselves as this outrage continues.
    I must say I agree. It's a basic right of a human.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    I fear that we might never have peace in the holy land, because fighting has been going on for so long and both sides feel the need for revenge.
    I agree again, completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helios View Post
    But I don't think the US should be supporting Israel's abuse of power right now.
    I sort of agree...I think...Not sure.

    The reason I don't really want any more of this (I have no idea why I bothered starting) is because I'm frankly really, really bad at defending the Israelis. I usually forget things, or more likely it doesn't come out the way I want it. Obviously...Because I'm getting replies irrelevant to what I wanted to say...

    Guess everything that I'd want to say can be said by people like Glenn Beck. I'm sorry, all I can say is that I disagree.

    Totally not weird at all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightningboalt View Post
    uh... did you miss the whole thing with the two rival gangs and the pair of pants?

  16. #16
    Putting a cap in your benefits Forum Moderator Superninfreak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Monday, Mar 1 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    2,784

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by Kameron View Post
    Guess everything that I'd want to say can be said by people like Glenn Beck. I'm sorry, all I can say is that I disagree.
    Wait, are you actually citing Glenn Beck as a better person to explain your views? Do you realize that he's only saying things to be a troll?
    Last edited by Superninfreak; July 27th, 2011 at 06:13 PM.
    "Have killed many, Shepard. Many methods. Gunfire, knives, drugs, tech attacks, once with farming equipment. But not with medicine." Mordin Solus, Mass Effect 2


  17. #17
    Apparently a Stranger...But still Livin' Life Loud Kameron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Friday, Nov 19 2010
    Location
    That floating island in Cave Story....Or is it that floating island in Terraria?
    Posts
    60

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    Um...Yes? Because...He is...

    From what I'm collecting from that website is that...Capitalism is apparently bad?

    I really don't care if he makes a lot of money, good for him, big whoop. But from what I've heard from him he knows what he's talking about.

    Totally not weird at all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightningboalt View Post
    uh... did you miss the whole thing with the two rival gangs and the pair of pants?

  18. #18
    Back in #000000 Someguyfromcrowd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Saturday, Mar 6 2010
    Location
    Halfway there
    Posts
    786

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    And this is the part where I become exasperated. Glenn Beck, in my opinion, is a fear-mongering comedian who is unfortunately taken seriously by a great number of far-flung political extremists.

    The justification of Israel's actions seems to stem from a view of "they are bad people, so let's be worse!"
    As stable as a six-membered alkyne ring and as predictable as an unsynchronized parallel cluster

  19. #19
    Putting a cap in your benefits Forum Moderator Superninfreak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Monday, Mar 1 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    2,784

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by Kameron View Post
    Um...Yes? Because...He is...

    From what I'm collecting from that website is that...Capitalism is apparently bad?

    I really don't care if he makes a lot of money, good for him, big whoop. But from what I've heard from him he knows what he's talking about.
    How is Forbes of all places an anti-capitalist website?

    Read the article:

    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    "I could give a flying crap about the political process," Beck tells the new issue of Forbes magazine (Forbes.com).

    "We're an entertainment company."
    Quote Originally Posted by Article
    As to the key to his success, there are the occasional pangs of regret, Beck says, but "I think I say the things that people are afraid to say - and sometimes the things people are too smart to say."
    "Have killed many, Shepard. Many methods. Gunfire, knives, drugs, tech attacks, once with farming equipment. But not with medicine." Mordin Solus, Mass Effect 2


  20. #20
    Back in #000000 Someguyfromcrowd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Saturday, Mar 6 2010
    Location
    Halfway there
    Posts
    786

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by Superninfreak View Post
    How is Forbes of all places an anti-capitalist website?

    Read the article:
    Hmm. Interesting. I've never quite thought of him as someone along the lines of Stephen Colbert in how he acts. Perhaps it's because the former is referenced as if a source of facts and the latter has a humorous audience.
    As stable as a six-membered alkyne ring and as predictable as an unsynchronized parallel cluster

  21. #21
    resident asshole cyanide_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Tuesday, Mar 2 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    811

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    glen beck isn't quite in the stephen colbert realm, he's more in the real of 'i don't give a &&&& how much damage i do, i just wanna make &&&& loads of cash because i'm an asshole'

    p.s. Kameron, Capitalism is destructive and by nature exploitation, so yeah, bad
    http://i51.tinypic.com/2m4x27t.gif

    Man struggled against man until the end, heaving and clawing. A single hand rose from the pile of corpses spread across the Earth, until it, too, softened and returned to the soil.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwnkFlVRCZc&feature=fvw

  22. #22
    To vex the world rather than divert it. Villerar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Thursday, Mar 4 2010
    Location
    To your left
    Posts
    3,908

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by Kameron View Post
    If it's about the land then it's not a matter of the "Eye for an eye" theory, it's a matter of (arguably, apparently) the "You broke into my house so instead of giving it to you I'm going to defend it" theory. But obviously people disagree that the Israelis were there first so, in an attempt to get out of this discussion (I'll say why later.) I'm going to not discuss the concept of "I saw it first."
    Nobody here is arguing whether the Israelis should be allowed to live in Israel, but using such ancient history for land claims is rather shady. As a Semetic people (Arabic peoples are Semetic) Palestinians are in any case related to Jewish people [link to abstract], the Palestinians are the descendents of the people who inhabited the crusader kingdoms plus later immigrants. It is likely they also descend to a significant degree from the inhabitants of Palestine during the Jewish Monarchies and Roman rule, i.e. Judeans, Samaritans and Galileans. So the Palestinians have partially a shared ancestry with the Jewish inhabitants of Israel.

    Arguing that all the lands should belong to the Israelis would therefore be rather muddled (besides, Israel does not have this as an official policy, 20% of the inhabitants of Israel are Arabs as well). As an analogy, consider the displacement of the Celtic identity by the Germanic people who originated from Scandinavia, which is the result of invasion (and thus killing) and intermarriage. Now consider if there would have been a stateless nation of West- and Central European Celts who would claim the lands invaded by Germanic peoples. Would this mean that over a hundred million people ought to be displaced to a small piece of land in Skåneland (ironically, anti-immigrant sentiments are rather strong in Skåland)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kameron View Post
    The reason I don't really want any more of this (I have no idea why I bothered starting) is because I'm frankly really, really bad at defending the Israelis. I usually forget things, or more likely it doesn't come out the way I want it. Obviously...Because I'm getting replies irrelevant to what I wanted to say...

    Guess everything that I'd want to say can be said by people like Glenn Beck. I'm sorry, all I can say is that I disagree.
    Glenn Godwin Beck has a history of saying very inane things, though. Let's have a look at this, for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kameron View Post
    Um...Yes? Because...He is...

    From what I'm collecting from that website is that...Capitalism is apparently bad?

    I really don't care if he makes a lot of money, good for him, big whoop. But from what I've heard from him he knows what he's talking about.
    It would be quite diverting if one could get that message from Forbes, but nah... they are not anti-capitalist as SNF said. Not even close.
    Last edited by Villerar; July 28th, 2011 at 08:23 AM.

  23. #23
    Aspiring Prinny Guitarist icbmdood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Friday, Mar 5 2010
    Location
    Silent Hill
    Posts
    201

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    I find it very disturbing, that many people (including myself, before) do not see the truth about what is really going on. Hamas are bad, but this is despicable.

    Also, I've always wondered how giving the chunk of land known as Israel to the Israelis after the Holocaust was justified, seeing as it belonged to other people. Oh and if anybody cites The Bible as justification for that, that is horrible reasoning (and I'm saying that as a Christian).

    I just don't know what to think anymore, with so much gray (or grey) splattering my once black and white view on life. Hell, this crap has been going on for so long, both sides seem pretty damn dark grey to me.
    Adonai Yeshua
    Proud Supporter of Invisible Children
    Go Nihon Falcom!

  24. #24
    Putting a cap in your benefits Forum Moderator Superninfreak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Monday, Mar 1 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    2,784

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by icbmdood View Post
    I find it very disturbing, that many people (including myself, before) do not see the truth about what is really going on. Hamas are bad, but this is despicable.

    Also, I've always wondered how giving the chunk of land known as Israel to the Israelis after the Holocaust was justified, seeing as it belonged to other people. Oh and if anybody cites The Bible as justification for that, that is horrible reasoning (and I'm saying that as a Christian).

    I just don't know what to think anymore, with so much gray (or grey) splattering my once black and white view on life. Hell, this crap has been going on for so long, both sides seem pretty damn dark grey to me.
    From what I understand the only reason is that they had a bunch of Jews who needed homes after being freed (since they lost their homes during the Holocaust).

    Of course taking homes from people isn't a good solution to helping people who had their homes taken from them.
    "Have killed many, Shepard. Many methods. Gunfire, knives, drugs, tech attacks, once with farming equipment. But not with medicine." Mordin Solus, Mass Effect 2


  25. #25
    To vex the world rather than divert it. Villerar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Thursday, Mar 4 2010
    Location
    To your left
    Posts
    3,908

    Re: Israeli Apartheid Week: educate yourself

    No, Zionism originated in the late nineteenth century in response to anti-Semitism in countries such as Russia, the German Empire and France, with Jews deliberately moving to Israel to escape pogroms and institutional bias (Dreyfus affair). The number of settlements increased during the early twentieth century, which were often acquired by buying the land from the local elite. The United Kingdom, which had the mandate over Palestine, had promised the area to both the Palestinians and the Jews living there. After the Second World War, many European Jews who survived the Holocaust wanted a safe haven, either because of their experiences in Europe or because of still present discrimination in some areas (including pogroms). They would migrate to Palestine by ships, which were often seized by the British but immigration still increased, ultimately leading to the establishment of Israel. I should mention that there were already violent confrontations during these eras.

    [/verysimplisticexplanation]

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •