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Thread: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

  1. #1
    Tornado Remix Lightningdork
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    I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    The 2P Start guest comic is easily the single worst comic in BitF's entire run. Seriously, let's take a minute to analyze it:

    Panel 1 - Waluigi looking nervous about playing tennis
    Panel 2 - Captain Falcon randomly appears for absolutely no reason
    Panel 3 - Captain Falcon randomly Falcon Punches Waluigi in the face for absolutely no reason while shouting a random unfitting tennis term
    Panel 4 - Waluigi now looks ugly

    This is completely incoherent and nonsensical, and it's not funny. There's literally no thought into it, and they went with this completely "minimalistic" (more on that later) art style that makes it look like they spent maybe 5 minutes on the comic altogether (contrast this with the guest strip TB did for 2P Start, which has a lot of details, a silly inspired joke about a game's poor decisions, and is kind of gigantic and clearly took a lot of thought and effort to create). It's like they only knew BitF for two vaguely memetic things it had going on (Waluigi, Captain Falcon doing "FALCON... insert thing here") and slapped a poorly made ugly comic together. I don't think Waluigi and Captain Falcon have even interacted at all in BitF prior to this strip, so why would you put them together? The comic is about as original and inspired as if I decided "I'm gonna make a comic that tells the origin of longcat" (is longcat even still a thing?) and it went something like... first panel is a cat, second panel has the cat and Pepe the feels frog, and then the third panel has longcat. It makes absolutely no sense, there isn't really a joke, but hey you understand what these things are and you know you're supposed to find it funny because "IT'S MEMES!!!" so it must be good!

    Now, before the 7 people that still browse this forum try to object with "BUT LIGHTNINGBOALT, YOU EVIL EVIL MAN, HE SAID FALCON DOUBLE FAULT! THAT'S A TENNIS JOKE! SEE, IT'S FUNNY!"... no see, that makes it even worse. "Falcon Double Fault" doesn't even make sense, and it shows that the 2P Start guys don't even know anything about tennis either, making this a comic based on three things they know nothing about (BitF's Waluigi, BitF's Captain Falcon, and the sport of tennis). There is no context for it making sense or being funny - am I funny if I yell THREE POINT SHOT next to a Basketball player who has just broken his leg? Waluigi's standing around waiting to start to play tennis, then Captain Falcon just shows up and is an asshole for no reason. A double fault is when you fail to hit a serve properly - as in, you're serving and the ball fails to make it over the net twice in a row. This idea for this comic, well... it's not gonna be funny aside to the lowest common denominator who sees "hahaha it's Waluigi and Captain Falcon I know those guys in BitF they're funny". Like, even if they did a version that made sense... let's say, adding in Captain Falcon as the referee and Waluigi being so nervous he fails to serve the ball properly twice, it's still not gonna be funny. At least then it might make some sense but it's still a stupid idea. Like, are we supposed to laugh at Captain Falcon being a rude jerk? Are we supposed to laugh at poor nervous Waluigi's misfortune? I just have no idea what they were going for here and I don't think they did either. The funniest thing about this comic is that it, in of itself, is a double fault - first it makes no sense, then it isn't funny. That's two failed attempts at serving us a comic. I think the most sensible explanation for this garbage existing is that the 2P Start guys googled "tennis terms" and picked a random one, and attributed it to Captain Falcon to show "see, we know the Falcon x Meme! We know tennis! We know Waluigi time, waa!"

    And this isn't even getting into the other litany of objections to the comic - it's ugly as hell. I like minimalism but they didn't go for minimalism, they went for laziness passed off as minimalism. "Real" Waluigi is terribly drawn and overlaid on what is obviously a picture of a tennis court photoshopped to fit the colors they chose for the comic. The Captain Falcon silhouette is really the only thing that looks good, but both panels with it have a bunch of lazy, ugly looking photoshop filters. The final drawing of Waluigi doesn't even have the upside down L facing the same direction for some reason. It's just jarring and gross looking, filled with inconsistencies and errors that further make it look rushed and created without the slightest bit of thought or planning.


    Humor is certainly subjective, and people are entitled to their opinions so if you found the 2P Start guest comic funny then it's not like I can forcibly change that. But take a moment to look at my perspective - I'm a writer, and two of the main things I focus on are comedy and analysis of stories. I like BitF for the most part but I don't think it's a perfect comic. I love a lot of it but I do think that some comics (Snake in the Grass arc, Cocoon Academy arc, the Sleepover arc... all of these come to mind) are kinda awful. Even those comics that TB did that I personally very much disliked and didn't find funny, I find more reasons to defend and enjoy them than I do 2P Start's guest strip.

    I'll focus on Snake in the Grass because I'm a huge Metal Gear Solid fan - it's very obvious TB doesn't know anything about Metal Gear or Snake, and the "Snake" in that comic might as well be the world's rudest cosplayer. Even though I despise that arc, I at least can respect what TB was trying to do - he had a central idea, he built up to it, and he tried to flesh it out to tell a story that reflected his humor and personality; it has silly sight gags, funny faces, and honestly if you replaced Snake with, say, Blood Falcon... it might become more effective. Despite my personal misgivings I can see that there was clear effort put into it, I can follow it, it makes sense and there are respectable attempts at storytelling and humor. 2P Start's Guest Strip, in stark contrast, is a rushed incoherent mess with no thought put into it whatsoever; the 2P Start guys could try arguing they did work very hard on it, but if that's the case it certainly isn't reflected in the godawful comic they churned out.
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  2. #2
    me irl O_O Skikkiks's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Personally I prefer the air
    best font CONFOUIRMED !HJOhewoifhdfjhosadhfoahdjsofjoasd

    white kids

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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Also, 2P Start is/was trash

    That's pretty much all you need to know to justify not liking their guest comic


    nice meme

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    cake Forum Veteran Chiffon's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightningboalt View Post
    The 2P Start guest comic is easily the single worst comic in BitF's entire run. [snip]
    I was going to say "I dunno man, it has some competition" but looking at it again, yeah it's pretty &&&&

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    Tornado Remix Lightningdork
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Skikkiks View Post
    Personally I prefer the air
    based skik

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtisticDuckie View Post
    Also, 2P Start is/was trash

    That's pretty much all you need to know to justify not liking their guest comic


    nice meme
    Honestly my biggest question is "why was this the only guest strip on BitF". I think the answer is that because it was so bad, it was determined that guest strips would never happen again, even though far better comic creators offered later on.

    thank you I am proud of my memeing

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiffon View Post
    I was going to say "I dunno man, it has some competition" but looking at it again, yeah it's pretty &&&&
    Yeah, like I said... there's a lot of BitF comics that I think are pretty bad. But at least all of them have SOMETHING going for them... this has the least amount of quality things going for it altogether, I think. As bad as some comics get (and boy do I think Cocoon Academy gets bad) you can usually attribute at least some bit of merit to it. This is just devoid of anything likable.
    Last edited by Lightningboalt; July 9th, 2015 at 03:03 PM.
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  6. #6
    wants to die EmpoleTRON's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    The idea of Waluigi having a non-ugly form might have been ref'd in a later comic by TB when BitF-standard Waluigi morphs "back"[?] into a normal ver of himself.

    My main gripe is Falcon appearing out of nowhere, it's like the author's shoehorned him in since he was a staple "BitF meme".

    On the topic of 2P Start, I wonder what happened to them. The 2P start comic died a while back but the site was still running until recently when it can no longer be found, their successor ReStart(worse) flopped a bit after it started and even that site has gone missing too.

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    Tornado Remix Lightningdork
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by EmpoleTRON View Post
    The idea of Waluigi having a non-ugly form might have been ref'd in a later comic by TB when BitF-standard Waluigi morphs "back"[?] into a normal ver of himself.

    My main gripe is Falcon appearing out of nowhere, it's like the author's shoehorned him in since he was a staple "BitF meme".

    On the topic of 2P Start, I wonder what happened to them. The 2P start comic died a while back but the site was still running until recently when it can no longer be found, their successor ReStart(worse) flopped a bit after it started and even that site has gone missing too.
    To the first bit, I believe TB was using that as closure on his version of Waluigi, "see the site can't be taken over anymore because he's normal now" and playing on the joke of his version of Waluigi looking so different. And yeah, like I said, the way they use Captain Falcon strikes me as "here's a memetic thing from this comic to combine with the other memetic thing from this comic". It truly does not feel like they actually know anything about BitF.

    Amazingly, I just looked and their website still exists... but hilariously enough, if you google it the first thing that shows up is BitF, followed by TV Tropes, fan wikis, and various other links. The actual 2P Start website does not show up on google. They're actually more well known for making their BitF guest strip than they are for making 2P Start. They also had a wikipedia page and that was deleted because it was determined that the comic wasn't actually significant enough to warrant a wikipedia page. As for ReStart, that was doomed to fail regardless. It was even worse than 2P Start so I'm not surprised, makes it worse considering it was unaffiliated fans aping the style and just generally being unoriginal. The creators actually were members here and predominantly tried advertising it here, didn't exactly light the forums on fire.
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  8. #8
    The Villager of Death
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Well 2P start sucked anyway. They stop the comic and then when they revive it, the first comic is an unoriginal flappy bird joke. Also the drawing looked like it was bad MS paint.

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    cake Forum Veteran Chiffon's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by The Villager of Death View Post
    Well 2P start sucked anyway. They stop the comic and then when they revive it, the first comic is an unoriginal flappy bird joke. Also the drawing looked like it was bad MS paint.
    didn't you say you were leaving

  10. #10
    The Villager of Death
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiffon View Post
    didn't you say you were leaving
    Didn't you need to keep blindly following Anita?
    Last edited by Lightningboalt; July 9th, 2015 at 06:03 PM.

  11. #11
    To vex the world rather than divert it. Villerar's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Do you have evidence for your implied conclusion that Chiff's a blind believer in Anita? I think your statement that you are leaving is well attested... rather well attested even as in publicly available.

    Edit: now with extra quotes:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Villager of Death View Post
    WEll with the forums dying down and the idiocy of some users I've decided to leave.




    SO goodbye forever.
    Last edited by Villerar; July 9th, 2015 at 04:12 PM.

  12. #12
    cake Forum Veteran Chiffon's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by The Villager of Death View Post
    Didn't you need to keep blindly following Anita?
    I don't know if I should laugh or be disappointed at this

    Seriously, is this the best reply you could come up with? come on, now

  13. #13
    Clobberin Monster Zant's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Awwww, looks like someone missed all us idiots <3

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiffon View Post
    I was going to say "I dunno man, it has some competition" but looking at it again, yeah it's pretty &&&&
    Ditto. I actually forgot 'bout this thing. I guess the sleepover arc ain't the worst that's ever happened on BitF after all. 'least that one had some fun faces.

    Oh, and as Boalt said, Matt did put effort into his guest comic, which just makes the Waluigi one even more unbearable. Matt gave them a lil' gem and he got literally the laziest comic in BitF history in return. I checked a few other comics while I was there but couldn't make it past this one. Jack plants grass. Link cuts grass. Hilarious. Hey remember one of BitF's spins on 'Link breaks pots?' Notice the actual effort put in here? Yeah, kinda works wonders for the overall quality of a comic.

    Really, the sheer lack of effort on 2P is astounding. The 2 creators seemed decent enough folks, but artistic and funny they were not. They's quite the opposite of BitF.
    Last edited by Zant; July 9th, 2015 at 04:12 PM.

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    It's happenng! Forum Veteran Taigiry's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    What a comeback... in more than one sense.

    Anyway, kinda a weird thing to bring up all of a sudden, eh? I mean, the comic is from, what... 2010? But I do have to agree, looking back, it really wasn't a great comic. And dare I say, considering it was the only one guest strip on this site (which I wasn't even aware of until now), I'd even call it a waste. It was pretty much:
    BitF meme + Smash Bros meme = comic.

  15. #15
    The Villager of Death
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Villerar View Post
    Do you have evidence for your implied conclusion that Chiff's a blind believer in Anita? I think your statement that you are leaving is well attested... rather well attested even as in publicly available.
    God guys we didn't need to deter this into another feminist discussion god.

  16. #16
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    "we didn't need to deter this into another feminist discussion" is not the best defense for someone who literally just brought up Anita in the weakest attempt at ad hominem I've ever seen.
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  17. #17
    It's happenng! Forum Veteran Taigiry's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zant View Post
    Oh, and as Boalt said, Matt did put effort into his guest comic, which just makes the Waluigi one even more unbearable. Matt gave them a lil' gem and he got literally the laziest comic in BitF history in return. I checked a few other comics while I was there but couldn't make it past this one. Jack plants grass. Link cuts grass. Hilarious. Hey remember one of BitF's spins on 'Link breaks pots?' Notice the actual effort put in here? Yeah, kinda works wonders for the overall quality of a comic.
    That's the thing, both jokes have been done to dead, let's be honest here, the difference is the approach. What sells the BitF is how expressive Link is. In the grass strip, he's all like "meh, whatever". Especially jarring considering it's Toon Link, ya know from the game where he is probably the most expressive in the entire series.

    Edit:
    Just noticed, as if the copy+pasted background isn't enough, Jack's face even looks copy+pasted in every frame, with some barely noticeable changes to the eyes. That is pretty lazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Villager of Death View Post
    God guys we didn't need to deter this into another feminist discussion god.
    Well, you brought Anita up, so... And just for another one of your personal insults.
    Last edited by Taigiry; July 9th, 2015 at 04:19 PM.

  18. #18
    Tornado Remix Lightningdork
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Hey everyone, welcome back to the Five Days is Forever Forums, hope you had a wonderful discussion about feminism

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigiry View Post
    What a comeback... in more than one sense.

    Anyway, kinda a weird thing to bring up all of a sudden, eh? I mean, the comic is from, what... 2010? But I do have to agree, looking back, it really wasn't a great comic. And dare I say, considering it was the only one guest strip on this site (which I wasn't even aware of until now), I'd even call it a waste. It was pretty much:
    BitF meme + Smash Bros meme = comic.
    Honestly, on the chat I was somehow reminded of 2P Start's existence and it led into a discussion on how bad the 2P Start guest comic was. After talking about it on there, I decided I wanted to post about it on the forums. Figured, maybe someone would enjoy the discussion, and even if nobody did then at least it was a fun writeup. And hey, site's dead, why not go for a throwback?
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  19. #19
    It's happenng! Forum Veteran Taigiry's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Yeah, I definitely wasn't complaining, just wondering about the timing. Truth to be told, I forgot the strip even existed, so it was a nice reminder. Also about the last sentence you said
    And hey, site's dead, why not go for a throwback?
    It's funny, because with how dead the forums are, it kinda reminds me of the beginning of the e-blah days, where everything was more lax, before the forum grew huge and the rules had to be more strict. Not that that's a bad thing when you have over hundreds of users online simultaneously. Nowadays, you probably have ~10 people who are semi-active and things feel more lax as a result... though that's not to mean nutcases like he-who-must-not-be-named should get free reign.

    Anyway, was it ever stated why there never has been another guest comic? The closest thing we got was that strip where Matt imitated various other comics, but I can't remember which one it was. I personally would've loved to see a comic exchange with Katie "Reaction Face" Tiedrich. Shame that never happened.

  20. #20
    Tornado Remix Lightningdork
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigiry View Post
    Anyway, was it ever stated why there never has been another guest comic? The closest thing we got was that strip where Matt imitated various other comics, but I can't remember which one it was. I personally would've loved to see a comic exchange with Katie "Reaction Face" Tiedrich. Shame that never happened.
    That year was the first time we did the BitF Trail and one of our ideas in the wake of the 2P Start guest strip was to offer TB some Nintendo/Oregon Trail themed comics to fill out the then MWF comic schedule... I think we were even considering getting 5 people and doing a whole week of comics. We figured we'd get some good forum artists (I know two of them were Kenz and Darky, don't remember the third but Dynawing and Jim are likely candidates) to do some fun little comics, and it'd be a fun way to get the main site and the forum in sync. That was a goal of the mod team for a pretty long while actually, try to coordinate stuff with the main site. We literally only got it to work once, when we convinced TB to do the Playstation All-Stars April Fools comic (that comic actually exists entirely due to the mod team's efforts, SNF and I were planning our pitch from the moment PSASBR was released); we had the goofy forum changes ready to go but we weren't gonna do it unless TB agreed.

    Anyhow, TB shut us down with the Trail idea and said he only wanted guests to be "professional" webcomic artists. Now, I just want to throw it out there that I've despised the 2P Start guest strip since the moment I first saw it, so that excuse really bugged me and got our volunteer artists pretty angry. We went through all this effort to try and do something fun that the whole site could get behind, and we got shut down for a really lame reason - our chosen artists put 2P Start to shame, and it's not like anyone even knew about 2P Start anyhow. I think history has vindicated us in that regard, 2P Start now being so little known that it is pretty much completely forgotten by the internet (Wikipedia deleting the 2P Start article for not being significant still amuses me, though the BitF guest strip being the first result for 2P Start is perhaps even funnier). But it really did suck, being told we needed a "pro" even though the singular guest strip was terrible and really only had a web domain over our forum members who wanted to do something special. In terms of talent, the people we had who were gonna do guest strips completely smoked the 2P Start guys, and they were much less refined then than they are today.

    I only know of one other instance that a guest strip opportunity was offered and rejected - Sam Laurel of Smaaaash. He's a regular on the chat, and he was thinking about doing a guest strip way back when. A bunch of us suggested he reach out, and he did. I don't remember if TB rejected him or just never got back to him, but obviously it never happened. I believe he ended up just posting the comic on Smaaaash, though I forget which exactly it was. But yeah, here we had a guy with a website and vastly superior art abilities than 2P Start... and nope, rejected.

    This is a totally baseless conspiracy theory, but if I had to guess a reason I'd say it was just that the 2P Start strip was so bad that TB didn't want to trust anyone else handling his baby again. Honestly, if that was actually the reasoning, I wouldn't blame him in the slightest for coming to that decision (though I still wish we would've gotten a far less insulting reason for why forumers couldn't do a guest strip, "not professional" my ass, not even BitF would count as "professional").
    Last edited by Lightningboalt; July 9th, 2015 at 05:55 PM.
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    You thought you were so clever... Forum Veteran Commodore Jim's Avatar
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    Laughs at his own jokes--HAHAHAHAohwait OshaliteX2's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    I never got the comic, so I never really thought about it. But yeah, it is pretty bad.

    Also...
    Quote Originally Posted by Lightningboalt View Post
    "BUT LIGHTNINGBOALT, YOU EVIL EVIL MAN, HE SAID FALCON DOUBLE FAULT! THAT'S A TENNIS JOKE! SEE, IT'S FUNNY!"
    This... this made me laugh. Sorry?
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  23. #23
    Shout out to the Wayback machine Ruane's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightningboalt View Post
    The final drawing of Waluigi doesn't even have the upside down L facing the same direction for some reason.
    Interestingly, the L facing the wrong direction is evidence that 2P Start did some research. Bitf's Waluigi in the first 17 Waluigi comics, as well as a few from the Waluigi Triliogi, have the L facing the wrong way. Thus, the 2P Start guest comic correctly shows that in the transition from Nintendo Waluigi to Bitf Waluigi, the L changes direction.

    That said, Waluigi's appearance change is the only accurate depiction. Captain Falcon is uncharacteristically aggressive with the unprovoked Falcon Punch. And as said, the tennis reference makes no sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lightningboalt View Post
    Honestly my biggest question is "why was this the only guest strip on BitF". I think the answer is that because it was so bad, it was determined that guest strips would never happen again, even though far better comic creators offered later on.
    Triforcebun did at least let friends and family create some comics, like Brawl From the Family and the occasional fiftyeighthens comics. But I must agree he probably didn't trust other artists to make a Brawl in the Family-esque guest strip.



    Now my pick for the worst comic is 483 Mr. Game & Watch Meets Paper Mario. TB should have just cancelled the Tuesday update if he was going to be so lazy about it.
    Last edited by Ruane; July 9th, 2015 at 06:41 PM.
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  24. #24
    Klaatu Barada Nikto Kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Golly gee, thanks for reminding me of this comic. And by thanks, I mean how could you.


    It seems pretty damn lazy, yeah, and after hearing your BitF Trail story, I'm a little peeved. But from what I understand, Matt and the 2PStart guys were like, close friends or something, which would explain things.

  25. #25
    It's happenng! Forum Veteran Taigiry's Avatar
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    Re: I hope this is an uncontroversial opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightningboalt View Post
    -snip-
    That's pretty interesting and... well, that sounds terrible. I would've been pretty angry about that reasoning, too. I know that Dyna is a pretty good artists (much better than those 2p start guys), so being rejected because you're not a "professional" is just downright terrible. What defines a "professional" in this case anyway? Having a website regardless of skill? Sure seems like it in this case. I do remember Dyna (among others) doing a lot of art for the BitF Trail, so at least for that reasons alone Matt could've thrown them a bone and not flat out reject them for not being "professional". Sounds a bit ungrateful, to be quite blunt here.

    Oh, I also remember SMAAASH! I thought the comics were pretty amusing back in the day and the art was nice to look at. If I'm not mistaken, Sam even had an account on the e-blah forum and posted his early comics there.

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