View Poll Results: What's your SSBM main?

Voters
25. You may not vote on this poll
  • Fox

    4 16.00%
  • Falco

    1 4.00%
  • Marth

    11 44.00%
  • Jigglypuff

    3 12.00%
  • Sheik

    4 16.00%
  • Peach

    1 4.00%
  • Captain Falcon

    1 4.00%
  • Ice Climbers

    0 0%
  • Samus

    4 16.00%
  • Pikachu

    0 0%
  • Luigi

    1 4.00%
  • Dr. Mario

    2 8.00%
  • Mario

    3 12.00%
  • Ganon

    1 4.00%
  • Yoshi

    2 8.00%
  • Link

    2 8.00%
  • Young Link

    2 8.00%
  • Donkey Kong

    0 0%
  • Game and Watch

    0 0%
  • Mewtwo

    2 8.00%
  • Roy

    3 12.00%
  • Zelda

    0 0%
  • Bowser

    0 0%
  • Ness

    2 8.00%
  • Something even worse

    2 8.00%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

  1. #1
    aspiring concern troll Peasley's Avatar
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    Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    Seeing as the Competitive Smash thread is long dead, this is as good a place as any to discuss the finest of all Smash Bros games: super Smash Bros Melee! The scene is booming 13 years after release and here we can discuss tournament results, players in the scene, our own play, and whatever else.

    Here are some good resources:

    The Smash Documertary - A good introduction to the lore of the early scene.

    Drastic Improvement - A really intensive guide on getting better at the game.

    VGBootCamp's Stream - The home of most major Melee tournament livestreams.

    VGBootCamp's Youtube - A great place to find hundreds of high-level sets with commentary.

    MeleeItOnMe - A great resource for articles on the scene and for improvement.

  2. #2
    We're all lurkers here SSBBrawler's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    I'm not really a Melee competitive player, but I did watch some of the Salty Suite tournament at Apex, and there was some really good playing. What really stood out was amsa's egg throwing on the edge. It was pretty cool to see a constant barrage of eggs coming from the edge. Egg on, amsa, egg on.

  3. #3
    Laughs at his own jokes--HAHAHAHAohwait OshaliteX2's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    I actually have a question. Whenever my friend comes over he asks me to boot up my Wii for Project M, which uses Melee thingamajigs. How are you supposed to use the single air dodge there opposed to the modern multiple dodges... And also how do you wavedash and what's it for?

    I myself am not a big fan of Melee but I do want to know some things about it. I just want to know, despite the fact I may never use the knowledge.
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    We're all lurkers here SSBBrawler's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OshaliteX2 View Post
    I actually have a question. Whenever my friend comes over he asks me to boot up my Wii for Project M, which uses Melee thingamajigs. How are you supposed to use the single air dodge there opposed to the modern multiple dodges... And also how do you wavedash and what's it for?
    The air dodges are tricky. It's why the air is a lot more dangerous in Melee than in Brawl or Smash 4. In short, the air dodge should be the last maneuver to avoid an attack while in the air.
    Wave dashing takes advantage of the 8 directional movement that can be input to an air dodge (if you have a direction pressed on the joystick, and air dodge, you dodge in that direction). If you air dodge diagonally down into the ground, you get a slight boost as the movement is transferred from the diagonal direction to a purely horizontal direction. With skill, you can use it space yourself outside of your opponent's attacks, get a sweet spot (Marth is a good example, with his tips), and can also be used to slide off the edge and grab it to edge hog.

  5. #5
    Sinking, falling, fallen Lord of the Arena Dynawing's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    I'm not very good at actually playing Melee myself, though I like to think I'm decent at Project M. Of course, Project M's not really gonna get any streams anymore, and I stopped playing it when SSB4 came out (plus they nerfed Zelda, so boo). Watching competitive tournaments, though, is really a lto of fun as long as you like the games. It's just really exciting, and there's something about Melee that makes it so great to watch. It really is like a sport, since I've got favorite players and everything.

    So while I'm on that, the Melee top 8 at Apex this year was aamzing and it was a really godo tournament overall, really liked SSB4 there as well.

    @OshaliteX: To expound on what SSBBrawler said, you can wavedash any time you're just above the ground by airdodging diagonally into it. This means you can basically scoot forward on the ground by jumping and then immediately airdodging, or waveland by doing it as you're about to land from the air. It's important but it's not actually as if competitive players wavedash the entire time, all the time. It's useful since it gives you a precise way to move your character while letting you perform any action out of it if you wavedash forward you'll be able to perform any of your ground moves, while you'd be quite limited if you just dashed. It also lets you make those tiny space adjustments so you can control your and the enemy's range.

    I haven't checked out some of the links Peas posted, but you can get a lot of good, relevant knowledge from this video series: The Advanced How to Play. It's a pretty straightforward tutorial that teaches you the basic universal tricks to really get the game going. All this stuff is applicable to Project M as well.
    Last edited by Dynawing; February 12th, 2015 at 08:06 PM.

  6. #6
    That guy who's barely on Lenrap's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    Quick noob question, would trying to play smash bros melee competitively help me do better in sm4sh? The game seems to have more complex mechanics, and maybe having a partial understanding of how those work would help me play better coming back to sm4sh. Of course, this may be useless considering that some of these mechanics (l-cancelling, wavedashing, etc.) have been removed, but it has the chance to help...
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  7. #7
    WHAT THE &&&& DID I TELL YOU JERRY? SHUT THE &&&& UP JERRY! Forum Veteran BrandonSP's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    I play competitive smash but suck at it because I spent more than half of my life playing with items on. But now my high school is hosting weekly Smash tournaments so I think I finally have the incentive to actually practice and stop being "that one guy who sort of knows what he's doing but can't consistently use advanced techniques and so just plays Smash 4"
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  8. #8
    SICKNASTY Forum Veteran JSG's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    I personally play more Project M and Smash 4 competitively than Melee, but I still love watching Melee anyways; it's definitely the most hype to watch. I've just never been good with a fast pace and many ATs that pretty much make the game essential for higher level play, which is why I'm personally more invested in Smash 4 as of now (and how I was previously invested in Brawl competitive play). However, I have done a little bit of competitive Melee in the past, and I've actually been playing Melee once in a while ever since Apex 2015. Right now I'm trying to improve my Marth and Peach game.

    There's also a bunch of players in the scene that have really inspired me to be so invested as a spectator. Ken, aMSa, M2K, D1, Larry Lurr, Chillin, KDJ, Hungrybox, MacD, and many, many more. Lots of great faces in the community, for sure.

  9. #9
    aspiring concern troll Peasley's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenrap View Post
    Quick noob question, would trying to play smash bros melee competitively help me do better in sm4sh? The game seems to have more complex mechanics, and maybe having a partial understanding of how those work would help me play better coming back to sm4sh. Of course, this may be useless considering that some of these mechanics (l-cancelling, wavedashing, etc.) have been removed, but it has the chance to help...
    In my experience, switching back and forth between Smash 4 and Melee makes me worse at both because the mechanics are so wildly different. Some very basic fundamentals carry over, but really the games are most similar in name and not gameplay.

  10. #10
    now jennynuts Jeff Andonuts's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    The absence of Pichu on the list upsets me. I can't be the only Pichu main, right?
    Recently I started playing Melee again after years. It's weird, but playing Melee and SSB4 is making me realise that Brawl, well, kind of sucks.
    This past year I watched a lot of competitive smash, which inspired me to step up my game. I don't think I'll ever be competitive in Melee, but at least I can wavedash consistently and have completed 3 Ken combos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peasley View Post
    In my experience, switching back and forth between Smash 4 and Melee makes me worse at both because the mechanics are so wildly different. Some very basic fundamentals carry over, but really the games are most similar in name and not gameplay.
    As an addendum to this, I want to add that after years of not playing Melee, the biggest difference for me was air dodging, and I still struggle with it when I switch. Even aside from that, it's like playing two different games. I don't do worse at either for playing the other, but getting better in one of them does not make me better at the other. (does that make any sense? i feel like i am losing my grasp on the english language).

  11. #11
    Phonetics do wonders. Forum Moderator Eltrotraw's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    So, coming off of playing several good players... I think I can contribute to this thread more accurately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenrap View Post
    Quick noob question, would trying to play smash bros melee competitively help me do better in sm4sh? The game seems to have more complex mechanics, and maybe having a partial understanding of how those work would help me play better coming back to sm4sh. Of course, this may be useless considering that some of these mechanics (l-cancelling, wavedashing, etc.) have been removed, but it has the chance to help...
    Melee has more complex mechanics, yes, I'll give you that. Competitive play in any Smash game however boils down to having a good fundamental neutral game, and a gameplan. I'll provide two scenarios to illustrate this point.

    Melee: Marth vs. Fox
    As the Marth, I know:
    • I do not want Fox to get me into the air, so as a result, I want to avoid
      • His grab (almost always going to be an up throw)
      • His up air (work on smash DI if I do get caught by it)
      • His up tilt (space properly to avoid getting hit by the odd hitbox on it)
      • His up smash (Fox's head is invincible during the animation, it WILL beat out forward air so don't try trading with it with that)
    • Fox is a fast faller, so he can be punished extremely hard once he's hit (on the flipside, he's hard to predict when he's going to be coming down with an attack)
    • Fox does not have a disjointed hitbox, so he has to commit rather hard compared to Marth's disjointed hitboxes to land hits. Take advantage of this.
    • Fox has a 1 frame attack that makes him invincible for that one frame (down+b), so being stuck in extreme close quarters against him is extremely dangerous.
    • My safest attacks to use, for the most part, are grab and down tilt.
      • Down tilt is almost guaranteed to force Fox to jump. If he jumps, I can take one of multiple methods to punish him with a wavedash backward - fsmash, utilt, grab, among others.
      • A grab at the ledge is an easy edgeguard situation, but throwing Fox up has its merits as well.
    • If Fox is offstage, your common methods of edgeguarding him are either dtilt, fair, dair, fsmash, or reverse up+b. Jab opens up as an option if he's using forward+b to recover.
    • Do not double jump or forward+b near the ledge when recovering, as Fox will take it as an easy opportunity to shinespike you.

    From this, you can surmise that the general goal for Marth against Fox is to maintain his spacing so that Fox is being threatened by both Marth's sword and Marth's grab game, while edgeguarding Fox to keep him off the stage effectively. If we include Melee tech into this, obviously, Marth doesn't want to be stuck in shield - he wants to maintain his position by utilizing his dashdance and his wavedash game. Despite wavedashing being overhyped, I believe dashdancing is a lot more effective of a technique for everyone to utilize compared to wavedashing.

    Meanwhile, on the flipside, an analysis of a SSB4 matchup of Yoshi vs. Ness from the Yoshi perspective:
    • As a Yoshi player, I know that my greatest strength against Ness is my aerial prowess. I want to bring Ness into the air.
    • I have several tools to put Ness into the air - second hit of jab, Egg Roll, Egg Toss, down throw, up tilt, forward tilt, up throw, and more.
    • Once he's in the air, I can juggle him or attack him with eggs, up airs, neutral airs, or back airs.
    • Ness cannot absorb eggs, so aiming them at him to force him to make a choice is a good option.
    • Yoshi can second jump out of the down throw + forward air combo.
    • Yoshi's nair can beat out the PK thunder projectile (but you have to time it correctly) if a Ness wants to use this offensively against me.
    • Yoshi's jab at worst can clash with Ness' jab if they attack at the same time - use this to your advantage if you get stuck in close quarters.
    • Forcing Ness into his shield can be both beneficial and dangerous - dash attacking past his shield to predict a roll can be punished with a down smash, but forcing him into his shield is a free throw opportunity into KO.
    • Keep usmash and uair fresh as possible. You want to make the most out of KOs with these two attacks.

    My general goal is to beat him in neutral with positioning and get him off balance. I make the most mileage out of jab, but I can improvise other openings - once he's in the air I can really start punishing him.

    That's the thing - you need to come up with a general gameplan and several things to watch for as a result of that. If you can do that in one smash game, you can do it in any... you just need to be cognitive enough to recognize what works, what doesn't, and why.

    Quote Originally Posted by JSG View Post
    I personally play more Project M and Smash 4 competitively than Melee, but I still love watching Melee anyways; it's definitely the most hype to watch. I've just never been good with a fast pace and many ATs that pretty much make the game essential for higher level play, which is why I'm personally more invested in Smash 4 as of now (and how I was previously invested in Brawl competitive play). However, I have done a little bit of competitive Melee in the past, and I've actually been playing Melee once in a while ever since Apex 2015. Right now I'm trying to improve my Marth and Peach game.
    The easy name to list when getting better at Peach was Armada, but he seems to be focusing mostly on Fox up until crushing Mango with the Peach once again.

    For Marth, obviously, you can watch PPMD or PewPewU, but you can also look up Kadano's thread where he examines through a bunch of framedata and posts applications of what you can do with the knowledge of said framedata.

    One of the biggest things that helped a lot of players on how to get better was to watch videos of high level play. If you can analyze why certain players did what in certain scenarios, then you're already on your way to becoming a better player.

    I think one of the biggest strengths to Melee is that unlike Brawl and SSB4, it really promotes a more dynamic field of play, and it's all thanks to the mechanics established in the gameplay - there's plenty of defensive and offensive play to be had, and I believe the game strikes a very healthy balance between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Andonuts View Post
    The absence of Pichu on the list upsets me. I can't be the only Pichu main, right?
    Recently I started playing Melee again after years. It's weird, but playing Melee and SSB4 is making me realise that Brawl, well, kind of sucks.
    This past year I watched a lot of competitive smash, which inspired me to step up my game. I don't think I'll ever be competitive in Melee, but at least I can wavedash consistently and have completed 3 Ken combos.
    Landing the Ken Combo is not the main goal you want, it's getting the opponent into the situation where you CAN get do it in a favorable position to begin with. There's a huge difference - same with wavedashing.

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  12. #12
    Responsible for Wario's Future Execution LeftyGreenMario's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eltrotraw View Post
    One of the biggest things that helped a lot of players on how to get better was to watch videos of high level play. If you can analyze why certain players did what in certain scenarios, then you're already on your way to becoming a better player.
    Where's a good place to start?

    And what's the best way to practice? I think I'm fairy decent (I beat everyone at a local Gamestop tournament with Brawl Mario and I haven't even touched vBrawl in years) and I know how most moves work, at least on my main (Mario and Dr. Mario). In Smash 4, I generally beat everyone I play against. We basically grew up with CPU opponents.

    Also, I'd rather ease myself in than blindly enroll tournaments because it would be extra stressful for me and I sometimes need to stay calm to play well.

    Finally, on another subject, I don't know if it's just me, or I tend to do worse online since the button inputs seem to take slightly longer to respond.
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  13. #13
    Phonetics do wonders. Forum Moderator Eltrotraw's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LeftyGreenMario View Post
    Where's a good place to start?
    The best first question to ask is what character you're playing, unless you just want to see how good players move/act. If the latter is true, then a few sets come up right off the top of my head.


    These are all within the past year. This is a pretty good look of how the game's developed by this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeftyGreenMario View Post
    And what's the best way to practice? I think I'm fairy decent (I beat everyone at a local Gamestop tournament with Brawl Mario and I haven't even touched vBrawl in years) and I know how most moves work, at least on my main (Mario and Dr. Mario). In Smash 4, I generally beat everyone I play against. We basically grew up with CPU opponents.
    Being "fairly decent" is a subjective viewpoint at best. It's a better testament to your skill if other skilled players can vouch for you seriously, because it's so common to hear players hype themselves up as good but ultimately disappoint.

    If we're looking at Melee, then there are a few names that come to mind with Mario and Doctor Mario.

    A Rookie is the big Mario star, I would've named Shroomed for Doctor Mario but he's switched to Sheik. Regardless, some matches that come to mind/that I can find...


    Quote Originally Posted by LeftyGreenMario View Post
    Also, I'd rather ease myself in than blindly enroll tournaments because it would be extra stressful for me and I sometimes need to stay calm to play well.
    I disagree - playing well under pressure is one of the big marks of a good player. Working on maintaining your composure despite everything going south or something unexpected (i.e. Armada) is a huge testament to skill level. Making the right decision is a huge point to playing well - "easing yourself" delays the trip.

    Sure, you'll probably lose your first tournament. So what? Use it as an experience to learn. Use it as an experience to meet new people, or practice partners. Use it as an experience to ask questions about how to improve your play.

    I can say all I want but I have no idea how you play or how good you are, so I cannot give you any specific advice. Someone who's just played with you locally - and can competently identify your problems - can do so and offer advice to how to improve your gameplay. From what it sounds, you lack that.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeftyGreenMario View Post
    Finally, on another subject, I don't know if it's just me, or I tend to do worse online since the button inputs seem to take slightly longer to respond.
    This is why local events are often superior. If you're playing Melee on Dolphin, this is why you have Pad Delay (or whatever it is) to counteract this input lag, but the fact that Melee has no buffer period unlike Brawl or SSB4 means that you must be frame perfect with your inputs - this is a huge reason why Melee players are very strict about wanting to play on lagless TVs, preferrably CRTs.
    Last edited by Eltrotraw; May 3rd, 2015 at 02:41 PM.

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  14. #14
    hey sinnerman where you gonna run to Forum Veteran Eruedraith's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LeftyGreenMario View Post
    Also, I'd rather ease myself in than blindly enroll tournaments because it would be extra stressful for me and I sometimes need to stay calm to play well.
    I feel I should also point out that even experienced tourney players across all kinds of games still get stressed out over tourneys. The best way to get used to it is to just accept that you're gonna get stressed over your first tourneys and that you're probably not gonna do well, so you might as well just go there to have a good time and learn from the experience. Eventually, you'll get more used to how to manage the stress of the situation, and you'l be doing better.
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  15. #15
    Responsible for Wario's Future Execution LeftyGreenMario's Avatar
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    Re: Fox Only, No Items, No Bs: The Competitive Melee Thread

    Meh, I can't really judge my skills on anything due to the lack of any sort of competitive games I play.

    I'm only mildly interested in joining a tournament. It's mostly transportation and money issues that get me (I can't drive yet and I don't have a disposable income), and that I'm not purely dedicated to competitive skill; I'm only interested in refining in what I feel are mostly crude, self-taught techniques.

    That being said, the best I can do IS watch those professional Mario players kicking ass and maybe one day do the same. As losing the first tournament, that's to be expected from someone like me. I'm very scared of my opponents, lol. Pretty sure it's the same for them!

    Thanks for the feedback!
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