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Thread: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

  1. #1
    It's happenng! Forum Veteran Taigiry's Avatar
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    Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    There were no objections in the News Thread, so let's discuss the rules. And feel free to sign-up here as well, please provide your 3DS code when doing so.

    I was thinking of the following:
    Tourney goes from 24th-26th this month (should give people enough time to battle, even taking timezones into account)
    3 Stock, no timer
    Best of three
    Double elimination
    Participants are limited to three character choices (please say them, it's the best way to avoid cheating)
    Custom moves allowed
    Custom equipment not
    No items
    Banned stages:

    Spoiler: Probably the final list 
    All Omega versions allowed
    First battle will be randomly on Battlefield, Final Destination or any Omega, afterwards it's losers's pick.


    And a list of all participants:
    Spoiler: Participants (28 of max. 32) 
    Last edited by Taigiry; October 23rd, 2014 at 03:50 PM.

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    I can't believe I forgot how great Copy Kitty is! MathematicalVoid's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    I'll join. My friend code is 3265-5309-8165.
    Steep prices and...trees.
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    Clobberin Monster Zant's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Sure I'll join, could be fun. All these rules I agree with too. Screw Yellow Devil.
    My code is 2809-6051-9440. I'll start adding folks when there's more codes in this here thread.

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    Generally Actiontastic Nad's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    I'd consider not allowing Magicant if the tournament is 1-vs-1. The Flying Men create havoc for people who are pitted against them, especially since they respawn quickly until the last leaves. It makes the match a 2-on-1, basically.

    Anyways, I'm quite interested, but I have to see how my days work out so I won't commit just yet. I'm also hoping by two weeks in the future the online servers have had their lag issues ironed out, haha.
    They say you can't keep a good man down, but some prefer to take in the scenery while they're there.

  5. #5
    It's happenng! Forum Veteran Taigiry's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Good thing you guys already did, because I forgot to mention to please provide your 3DS code when signing up as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nad View Post
    I'd consider not allowing Magicant if the tournament is 1-vs-1. The Flying Men create havoc for people who are pitted against them, especially since they respawn quickly until the last leaves. It makes the match a 2-on-1, basically.

    Anyways, I'm quite interested, but I have to see how my days work out so I won't commit just yet. I'm also hoping by two weeks in the future the online servers have had their lag issues ironed out, haha.
    True, as much as I love Magicant, but the Flying Man can interrupt the fight pretty badly. As for lag, 1-on-1 is pretty much lagfree, from my experience, especially Friend Battles.

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    Thank you, you useless reptile. Forum Veteran Doofenshmirtz's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    So, what's the ruling on custom movesets? I don't want to allow equipment but custom movesets are an entirely different thing...

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    Standing on the brink of insanity with one foot on a banana peel. TheMightyBox's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Yeah,
    guess I'll hang out with my parents that weekend.

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    Generally Actiontastic Nad's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigiry View Post
    As for lag, 1-on-1 is pretty much lagfree, from my experience, especially Friend Battles.
    I've actually been having smooth matches, but I do notice through replays the fights are actually slightly slow for me playing online, haha. I doubt anyone will have a problem with it as I sure haven't with my online sparring partners, but I wonder if it'll be enough to throw someone off. (it did for my Canadian friend despite I didn't notice it till after, haha)
    They say you can't keep a good man down, but some prefer to take in the scenery while they're there.

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    It's happenng! Forum Veteran Taigiry's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
    So, what's the ruling on custom movesets? I don't want to allow equipment but custom movesets are an entirely different thing...
    Well, some characters rely on custom movesets, namely Miis and Palutena, so they should definitely be allowed. As for equipment, I don't see a reason why they shouldn't be, but as said, this is currently also the planning stage, so rules can change if there are enough objections.

  10. #10
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Darn it, I need to get the game quick!

  11. #11
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    I'd be game for a tourney, as long as I have access to wifi that weekend...

    My code is:
    0344 9780 8721

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    pirate queen War P. Anda's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Yeah, alright. I'll probably be able to do this, assuming nothing weird comes up. 0001-3332-1010

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    Clobberin Monster Zant's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Looking through the stages, I propose we also ban Flatzone 2 because of the obnoxious lion tamers that juggle you to death.

    I'm fine with every other stage, but perhaps others might find issue with the rather gimmicky Balloon Fight or Pac-Maze?

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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    I'm not very good at this game, but might as well. 4871-4716-7772 is the code.

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    Thank you, you useless reptile. Forum Veteran Doofenshmirtz's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Taigiry View Post
    Well, some characters rely on custom movesets, namely Miis and Palutena, so they should definitely be allowed. As for equipment, I don't see a reason why they shouldn't be, but as said, this is currently also the planning stage, so rules can change if there are enough objections.
    Well, some equipments give ridiculous buffs like normal shields reflecting projectiles and exploding when hit so that's why I only think custom movesets should be allowed. that, or limit equipments to basic stuff.

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    What Would Bayonetta Do? Forum Veteran Elfice's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    yeah there are a couple things that I would really recommend changing about this

    as Doof pointed out, equipment is actually kinda cheap. Now sadly, there's no way to ONLY allow custom specials, so if equipment does get banned (like when this game starts getting played on the actual tourney circuit, there's no way equipment will be allowed), you'll just have to hope that your opponent isn't cheating. Most of the time, though, it's pretty easy to tell if someone is using equipment, though, so that shouldn't be too hard to identify.

    the other thing, though, is the stages

    Sakurai has done an incredibly...amazing thing with the stages in this version. By giving us the Omega forms, he thinks he's completely assuaged the needs of the competitive players, and thus, has made almost ZERO stages that could be suitable counterpicks in a tournament (thankfully it looks like the Wii U version won't be having this problem, but there could be more that we aren't seeing). If you really want the most neutral experience between two players, I'd say the only legal stages (besides all Omega forms) would be Battlefield, FD (duh), and Yoshi's Island, with Arena Ferox and Prism Tower being the only 100% suitable counterpicks in the game. There are some stages that COULD work but have a very serious issue - Tomodachi Life's top blast zone is VERY close to the roof, Reset Bomb Forest (layout grievances aside from those who don't like that, though it doesn't bother me personally) has a pretty sizable cave of life in the upper left corner, and Gaur Plains' top platforms are walkoff. But the other stages are entirely unsuitable to a tournament, as they combine the worst elements a stage could have.

    I know this sounds like "your rules suck change them now kthx" but if you want a tournament that doesn't leave people feeling (and rightly so) incredibly salty about getting screwed over by something that happened because of the stage, I would really consider expanding that list of banned stages.

    Also I'm assuming based on the fact that it's a three day thing that the format is round robin?
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    It's happenng! Forum Veteran Taigiry's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zant View Post
    Looking through the stages, I propose we also ban Flatzone 2 because of the obnoxious lion tamers that juggle you to death.

    I'm fine with every other stage, but perhaps others might find issue with the rather gimmicky Balloon Fight or Pac-Maze?
    Agreed to Flatzone. As for Baloon Fight and Pac-Maze, no reason when no one speaks up. Not to mention Pac-Maze seems to be pretty tame on the obstacle side, seems like all the power pallet does is making you immune to the ghosts, but not making you stronger. This is much better than Golden Plains' near invincibilty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
    Well, some equipments give ridiculous buffs like normal shields reflecting projectiles and exploding when hit so that's why I only think custom movesets should be allowed. that, or limit equipments to basic stuff.
    That's a thing? Those are really obnoxious effects I didn't know about until just now. A compromise would certainly be to only allow equipments without any (de)buffs, but there would be no way to check if people would actually adhere to that rule. That would require honesty from everyone involved and I'm not quite sure if that's a good idea. I'll think about it a bit more, but after reading this, I'd actually be in favor of not allowing equipments.

  18. #18
    What Would Bayonetta Do? Forum Veteran Elfice's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    the Power Pellet actually increases your overall power by 30% (saw it on a tip some time back, if you want I can go through and find it to show you), so uh

    it's not as vanilla as you think

    and Balloon Fight throwing out those sparks (not to mention the fish) are uh...not exactly what someone should have to worry about when they're facing somebody in what could be a vacuum
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  19. #19
    Red in the face Redandgreen43's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    You know, there is a custom move for Jigglypuff that when she sleeps, if you hit her, she blows up. You get launched, but I think Jiggly comes out just fine. Plus, there's kirby's giant flaming hammer. 50-59 damage at lowest charge, i think. But some of these customs are absolutely insane. But it's Taigiry's choice, not mine. (Also, my friend found a recovery move for Mac that removes his poor recovery. Just putting that in there.)

  20. #20
    Sinking, falling, fallen Lord of the Arena Dynawing's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    My opinion on equipment is that they're just too troublesome. As Doof said, there's a lot of very powerful equipment effects that can really skew things, and even if each type is picked through and we determine which should be allowed, equipment also just poses a problem in fairness. There are practically infinite kinds of equipment out there and the person who has more or got lucky and got some good equipment will have an advantage just because they did more offline play. Even just the standard stat changes can have drastic effects that can mess with players' expectations for each character.

    While I've seen some custom moves that I really think are flat-out better than others, I think theyr'e generally more balanced and they're universal, too. Everybody can have different kinds of equipment, but custom moves will be the same in each person's game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redandgreen43
    You know, there is a custom move for Jigglypuff that when she sleeps, if you hit her, she blows up. You get launched, but I think Jiggly comes out just fine. Plus, there's kirby's giant flaming hammer. 50-59 damage at lowest charge, i think. But some of these customs are absolutely insane. But it's Taigiry's choice, not mine. (Also, my friend found a recovery move for Mac that removes his poor recovery. Just putting that in there.)
    Just did some testing with the explosive Rest (Wakie Wakie). It doesn't work like that there is a very obvious "charging-up" kind of effect when Jigglypuff falls asleep and she explodes shortly after, dealing 5% to herself. It's quite powerful but it's really telegraphed and you can hit her out of it. There's even a windbox that pushes you away from her before she blows up. Even if she blew up on hit, I don't see how that would be any different from any counter move.

    I don't have Kirby's custom moves, but I looked up a video. Even the "slow and heavy" version of the hammer only does 20%~ uncharged and is again, really slow.

    Custom moves are generally balanced to have trade-offs. Some are better than others for certain things, and that might include 1v1s, but I don't think they'll break anything. I've yet to hear of anything that's seriously too centralizing or difficult to counter.


    Adding onto the points about Balloon Fight, in addition to all its hazards you also can't see Greninja's Shadow Sneak on it, which isn't terribly huge because it's only one character, but it's also a point against it along with the sparks, fish, flippers, and the weird walk-off. You can't see the shadow on the omega version, either.


    Anyways, might sign up for this later, but I just wanted to throw in my piece about some things here. I really think the game's got a whole host of crazy stages, but the most obnoxious ones I can think of are already banned or being discussed anyways.
    Last edited by Dynawing; October 9th, 2014 at 04:02 PM.

  21. #21
    It's happenng! Forum Veteran Taigiry's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfice View Post
    Sakurai has done an incredibly...amazing thing with the stages in this version. By giving us the Omega forms, he thinks he's completely assuaged the needs of the competitive players, and thus, has made almost ZERO stages that could be suitable counterpicks in a tournament (thankfully it looks like the Wii U version won't be having this problem, but there could be more that we aren't seeing). If you really want the most neutral experience between two players, I'd say the only legal stages (besides all Omega forms) would be Battlefield, FD (duh), and Yoshi's Island, with Arena Ferox and Prism Tower being the only 100% suitable counterpicks in the game. There are some stages that COULD work but have a very serious issue - Tomodachi Life's top blast zone is VERY close to the roof, Reset Bomb Forest (layout grievances aside from those who don't like that, though it doesn't bother me personally) has a pretty sizable cave of life in the upper left corner, and Gaur Plains' top platforms are walkoff. But the other stages are entirely unsuitable to a tournament, as they combine the worst elements a stage could have.
    What you're saying, or at least that's how it sounds to me, is basically to ban all stages with hazards, which I don't want to do. I'm all for banning Golden Plains', Flatzone or Magicant, which would make the stage broken, so to say, but I won't be banning stages just because they have a hazard. And with chain grabbing being nerfed, I don't see what's so bad about walk-off either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfice View Post
    the Power Pellet actually increases your overall power by 30% (saw it on a tip some time back, if you want I can go through and find it to show you), so uh

    it's not as vanilla as you think

    and Balloon Fight throwing out those sparks (not to mention the fish) are uh...not exactly what someone should have to worry about when they're facing somebody in what could be a vacuum
    Granted, I was wrong on the Pac-Maze stage then and 30% is pretty big, so I'll think about it, but I still don't see a reason for Baloon Fight to be banned. The spark is pretty slow moving to begin with and the fish isn't too hard to avoid either. What could be done though, is ban Balloon Fight 2 (selected with "L"), but keep the more basic layout.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redandgreen43 View Post
    You know, there is a custom move for Jigglypuff that when she sleeps, if you hit her, she blows up. You get launched, but I think Jiggly comes out just fine. Plus, there's kirby's giant flaming hammer. 50-59 damage at lowest charge, i think. But some of these customs are absolutely insane. But it's Taigiry's choice, not mine. (Also, my friend found a recovery move for Mac that removes his poor recovery. Just putting that in there.)
    I'm not seeing the part you mentioned about Jigglypuff. At least from reading there, it doesn't sound broken at all. And I have all of Mac's specials, his recovery still sucks, no matter what.

  22. #22
    What Would Bayonetta Do? Forum Veteran Elfice's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Walkoffs still aren't good because it puts an inordinate focus on fighting at the edge of the maps, because players hope for a super early kill (Ness, for example, can still get a LOT of usage out of a walkoff, because his forward throw is a set distance, meaning if he grabs you when you're both pretty much offscreen but maybe not in the magnifying glass, you are going to die and there's not a damn thing you can do about it). Additionally, Gaur Plains is the only stage with both a walkoff and a lower blast zone all the time, so the other stages completely remove any need to edgeguard or fight in the air in general, and the entire existence of the air game is something that makes Smash Bros entirely unique amongst fighting games. By removing that element, you're stripping away one of the most fundamental, and interesting, mechanics that Smash Bros has. Just because chaingrabbing is now fundamentally impossible does not mean stages with walkoffs are going to be welcomed with open arms, as chain grabs were just one of the things that abused walkoffs.

    And I completely understand if you don't want to ban a stage just because it has hazards, but the reason they get banned is because the hazards can override the skill of the players, and in a test of skill like a tournament, that's not right. You seem pretty deadset against banning stages just because they have hazards, though, so I don't entirely expect to change your mind, but I guarantee you there's going to be at least one or two people who are going to perform worse because of the hazards on stages, and they're gonna feel kinda cheated because all you can really say to them is "well that's the breaks".
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  23. #23
    Red in the face Redandgreen43's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Eh, must've misread some stuff. My friend told me, so what do I know. By the way, here's my code, cuz i'm gonna clobbah yah all: 1332-8993-7355

  24. #24
    Thank you, you useless reptile. Forum Veteran Doofenshmirtz's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    In any case, I'm participating most likely but I'll cement my decision based on whether custom move sets are allowed, but im against equipments.

  25. #25
    It's happenng! Forum Veteran Taigiry's Avatar
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    Re: Smash 3DS tourney sign-ups and rule discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfice View Post
    Walkoffs still aren't good because it puts an inordinate focus on fighting at the edge of the maps, because players hope for a super early kill (Ness, for example, can still get a LOT of usage out of a walkoff, because his forward throw is a set distance, meaning if he grabs you when you're both pretty much offscreen but maybe not in the magnifying glass, you are going to die and there's not a damn thing you can do about it). Additionally, Gaur Plains is the only stage with both a walkoff and a lower blast zone all the time, so the other stages completely remove any need to edgeguard or fight in the air in general, and the entire existence of the air game is something that makes Smash Bros entirely unique amongst fighting games. By removing that element, you're stripping away one of the most fundamental, and interesting, mechanics that Smash Bros has. Just because chaingrabbing is now fundamentally impossible does not mean stages with walkoffs are going to be welcomed with open arms, as chain grabs were just one of the things that abused walkoffs.
    Let's see, you say people camp at the edge of the stage, but that's also a double-edged sword, because they put themself at risk as well. And the air game might be unique to Smash, but it's not the only way to play the game. The diversity among the stages is also what makes Smash interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfice View Post
    And I completely understand if you don't want to ban a stage just because it has hazards, but the reason they get banned is because the hazards can override the skill of the players, and in a test of skill like a tournament, that's not right. You seem pretty deadset against banning stages just because they have hazards, though, so I don't entirely expect to change your mind, but I guarantee you there's going to be at least one or two people who are going to perform worse because of the hazards on stages, and they're gonna feel kinda cheated because all you can really say to them is "well that's the breaks".
    It depeds on the stage. If it's something gamebreaking (who thought granting near invincibility for collecting coins was a good idea needs to be fired), but hazards aren't inherently bad. Hyrule Castle (tornado), Halberd(homing weapons), Brinstar (acid only leaves a small plattform), Orpheon (rotation), Lylat Cruise (tilting plattforms) and more are all allowed in tournament play. You mentioned unique Smash attributes above, hazards belong to them as well. That's why I'm against banning everything that has a hazard.

    If enough people mention a stage to be banned, I could certainly change my mind, I'm not that stubborn. I'm just against banning everything.
    Last edited by Taigiry; October 9th, 2014 at 04:56 PM.

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