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Thread: Equal rights between men and women

  1. #51
    Pacha-cutie the Adorable Incan shiny stone's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Superninfreak View Post
    My point is that men have massive representation in government. About 80% the seats in both Houses of Congress are held by men. You'd think if women had everything great and were oppressing men, that there'd be a few more women in positions of power.
    Congressmen vote to please their voters and lobbyists, and they are suckers for good press. Women's issues play well on TV and please the voters and lobbyists. So they're complicit, although I wouldn't use the dramatic term "oppression".

    About a man's right to choose parenthood, what solution do you offer for that? What do you propose should be changed?
    When a woman wants to carry her pregnancy to term without her partner's consent, she shouldn't be able to demand child support from him. Child support should be for parents whose deadbeat partners flake on their commitments or prove unfit, not for women who unilaterally volunteer for motherhood. This has a variety of awful names including "financial abortion" or "legal paternal surrender".

  2. #52
    Putting a cap in your benefits Forum Moderator Superninfreak's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    That's basically saying that child support laws should all be repealed.

    What is a "deadbeat" dad if not a father who disagrees with a child's birth? What deadbeat dad would agree to child support?

    It really seems like there's no incentive for a man to accept giving child support.
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  3. #53
    Pacha-cutie the Adorable Incan shiny stone's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Superninfreak View Post
    That's basically saying that child support laws should all be repealed.

    What is a "deadbeat" dad if not a father who disagrees with a child's birth? What deadbeat dad would agree to child support?
    A deadbeat to me is one who chooses fatherhood and then fails to follow through. A man who disagrees with his child's birth, who made it clear from the beginning that he wasn't ready for parenthood, who took reasonable birth control measures yet is forced into fatherhood, is not a deadbeat. He might be poor, out of work, trying to graduate high school or college, have a genetic disease, etc. Men have legitimate interests in family planning and birth control!

    It really seems like there's no incentive for a man to accept giving child support.
    Many fathers would pay child support in order to see their kids every other weekend. In fact many divorced and unmarried couples arrange child support without going to court at all.
    Last edited by shiny stone; September 22nd, 2014 at 08:23 PM.

  4. #54
    Putting a cap in your benefits Forum Moderator Superninfreak's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Yeah, some of them arrange it themselves, when they know that child support is legally required.

    The problem is that it puts the burden on women for men to be able to easily opt out of fatherhood. Signing a form saying that you disapprove of a child's birth is a much much easier process than abortion, especially given draconian abortion restrictions in much of the US. Some states have one or fewer abortion clinics.
    Last edited by Superninfreak; September 22nd, 2014 at 08:37 PM.
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  5. #55
    Pacha-cutie the Adorable Incan shiny stone's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Superninfreak View Post
    Yeah, some of them arrange it themselves, when they know that child support is legally required.

    The problem is that it puts the burden on women to be able to easily opt out of fatherhood. Signing a form saying that you disapprove of a child's birth is a much much easier process than abortion, especially given draconian abortion restrictions in much of the US.
    Women should have access to abortions without all the crazy regulations intended to dissuade them and close abortion clinics, certainly. But even the reddest, Bible-thumpinest states have clinics that provide abortions to any woman during the first trimester (more precisely 20 weeks) of her pregnancy. Abortion is a real option, as are the morning after pill, adoption, and abandonment. It is absurd to deny all reproductive rights to men just because abortion is inconvenient for women.

  6. #56
    Putting a cap in your benefits Forum Moderator Superninfreak's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Even in a society where abortion is convenient (which we are very far from), a "financial abortion" is much much easier than an abortion.

    For one, signing a form doesn't require an invasive medical procedure, and it wouldn't be as expensive (unless if you charged a fee for filling out the form, which I suppose you could do).

    It also has less moral weight. An abortion is an incredibly difficult moral choice to make. You can say that a "financial abortion" would also be a difficult moral choice, but I feel like it's easier to brush off the moral implications in the case of a financial abortion.

    Abandoning a child to their mother is frowned upon by society, but it's not as stigmatized as having an abortion.

    Furthermore, it's easy to assume that the mother will find some way to care for the child. That's an easier rationalization to make than having to accept ending the life of a fetus.

    So I think that if financial abortion were legal, it would be used much more often than abortion is. You'd need some kind of strong disincentive to it to make it equitable.

    The point is that biology isn't egalitarian, unfortunately. It's incredibly difficult to create a system where no one loses out. It's incredibly unfortunate that some men have to pay child support against their will, but I don't see any good alternatives. I feel like in the real world, your solution would make things a little better for men, while making things much worse for women.

    I won't claim that current policy on child support is ideal. There are probably reforms you could have on the margins to make the system better. Maybe the system could take into account the wealth of the two parties better than it currently does (unfortunately I'm not familiar enough with child support laws to be able to accurately judge that kind of thing).

    But I feel like financial abortions would have a lot of unintended consequences.
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  7. #57
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
    So you're shifting the blame to religion, then?

    And of course men should have equal rights. Women also need equal rights. That's the point of feminism. Equality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparklesqueak View Post
    Apparently, feminism and masculinism are actually two sides of the same coin, one fighting for women's rights to be equal to men, and the other fighting for men's rights to be equal to women. They're just applied to different spheres of life.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism
    To jump back a bit (a few hours) I would like to point something out.

    We really need to stop using blanket terms like feminism, because it feminism is, like Sparklesqueak said, women's rights, not equality. We really need to come up with a term that means gender equality that is more shortened (mostly because people are lazy and it is easier to say feminism or something that can be slurred into almost being a single syllable. If there was a fast and easy way to say gender equality It would probably make it catch on more instead of people just saying feminism.)

    In some ways, feminism has become a blanket statement for equality when it really is not.

    One could make the argument that modern feminism is equality, but its name only has one gender in it. That is still inequality and to some will perpetuate feminism being one sided in favor of women's equality or empowerment instead of the equal empowerment of everyone. (Most of this post is about the symbolism of feminism and very core beliefs of it more than the actual ideals of the majority of the people who want equality).

  8. #58
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    I prefer the term "Equal gender rights" over "Feminism."
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  9. #59
    Klaatu Barada Nikto Kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Well tough, cuz Feminism is what it is. It is about equality for both genders, believe it or not. It's about destruction of the patriarchal form of society we currently live in in favor of one where people of all genders are equal. It's about letting men wear dresses with pride as much as it's about letting women not be sexually harassed. It's about men and women and everything in between, and the viewpoint of it being purely about women is wrong.

  10. #60
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Most online dictionaries I've come across, and Wikipedia, define feminism specifically as a movement to increase women's rights in areas where they have fewer rights than men.

    Masculinism, meanwhile, ranges from trying to increase men's rights in areas that typically favor women, to the claim that men are superior to women.

    Well, great. How fair is that, for the female gender to be associated with the fight for equality and the male gender to be associated with the fight against equality? Sure, it's a minor complaint in the grand scheme of things, but it's bothersome nonetheless.

  11. #61
    To vex the world rather than divert it. Villerar's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by shiny stone View Post
    A deadbeat to me is one who chooses fatherhood and then fails to follow through. A man who disagrees with his child's birth, who made it clear from the beginning that he wasn't ready for parenthood, who took reasonable birth control measures yet is forced into fatherhood, is not a deadbeat. He might be poor, out of work, trying to graduate high school or college, have a genetic disease, etc. Men have legitimate interests in family planning and birth control!
    This seems to underdetermine cases of disagreement about a child's birth by a significant extent. What do you think of it if the guy was initially too indifferent to disagree and later decided he didn't consent?

    Quote Originally Posted by shiny stone View Post
    Women should have access to abortions without all the crazy regulations intended to dissuade them and close abortion clinics, certainly. But even the reddest, Bible-thumpinest states have clinics that provide abortions to any woman during the first trimester (more precisely 20 weeks) of her pregnancy. Abortion is a real option, as are the morning after pill, adoption, and abandonment. It is absurd to deny all reproductive rights to men just because abortion is inconvenient for women.
    How is not paying child support a reproductive right? It is completely posterior to the discovery of a pregnancy and unless you'd want to violate female control of their bodies, which you have clarified that you don't want, men won't be able to enforce their opinion about the pregnancy through legal means. So the issue paying or not paying does not influence reproduction except in bizarre scenarios. You have yourself stressed the difference between bodily autonomy and reproductive rights, but you seem to claim that a certain economic right you want to bestow on men falls under reproductive rights.

    And you repeatedly claim that a great many things are amiss in the land of male reproductive rights, but how is access to condoms anything other than empowering men about their reproduction? Theoretically you could build in a legal mechanism that exempts men from responsibility in case of condom malfunction. That might create a bad law for all I know (I am not a great fan of forcing the minutiae of my ethics about the subject into laws for the very reason that micromanaging sexuality can easily create bad laws), but it would make condoms a very effective instrument for responsibly preventing unwanted financial burdens. I do not see why you'd need more than that.

  12. #62
    What Would Bayonetta Do? Forum Veteran Elfice's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by shiny stone View Post
    Women in the West don't need much help, except (against the Church) on abortion. Feminists here already have powerful groups to lobby for legislation, attract media coverage, and mobilize voters. Somebody has to advocate men's rights. Men deserve real choices about parenthood, we deserve recognition and support when we're victimized (especially by rape and domestic violence), we deserve fair adjudication of alimony and child custody, we deserve unbiased criminal trials and sentences, and we deserve freedom from compulsory military service. In short, we deserve the rights that women enjoy. It is not at all clear that our voices are privileged when nobody with real power is speaking up for us.

    Africa and the Middle East need a healthy dose of religious pluralism in order to weaken sharia law. Traditional patriarchal religions (Islam and Christianity) are the main forces holding back women in the world.
    Good job justifying a nice dose of Islamaphobia by saying that you're against how misogynistic it is, while in the same breath, denying that women need more advocates for their rights. Classy.

    Quote Originally Posted by shiny stone View Post
    But even the reddest, Bible-thumpinest states have clinics that provide abortions to any woman during the first trimester (more precisely 20 weeks) of her pregnancy.
    I'd like to remind you of this topic. While it's true that "the reddest, Bible-thumpinest states have clinics that provide abortions to any woman during the first trimester", that does not mean that abortion is readily accessible (unconditional accessibility is the goal of the pro-choice movement, not legality - it's unconstitutional to ban all abortion thanks to Roe v. Wade). Let's look at some maps and numbers! For starters: the square mileage of Texas:


    Next, the amount of women in Texas:


    And finally, the location of the abortion clinics that do not have to shut down (since yes, the bill did get passed):


    You see the problem here?

    If you don't, let me spell it out for you: unless you live in Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, or El Paso, there is not an abortion clinic that you can go to in the state of Texas that would be considered "local". You want to know how many women that stops from getting abortions in clinics, resulting in them having to either travel to one of those cities, or even worse, makes them consider back-alley, coat hanger, or self-mutilation abortions? Over 10 million. So just because there ARE clinics in Texas, that does not even come CLOSE to saying abortions are accessible in Texas, as the other (roughly) 267,279 square miles don't have one nearby. False equivalency. Say it with me! "Legality does not mean accessibility."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparklesqueak
    Most online dictionaries I've come across, and Wikipedia, define feminism specifically as a movement to increase women's rights in areas where they have fewer rights than men.

    Masculinism, meanwhile, ranges from trying to increase men's rights in areas that typically favor women, to the claim that men are superior to women.

    Well, great. How fair is that, for the female gender to be associated with the fight for equality and the male gender to be associated with the fight against equality? Sure, it's a minor complaint in the grand scheme of things, but it's bothersome nonetheless.
    It's because men are the ones who built society to cater to them - straight cisgender white men have every single right on the books. They do not need a movement to gain more rights. Do you know why? Because they're the ones who decided who gets what rights. As Kiwi said, feminism is not about women destroying men so that they are the most superior gender group. It's about destroying patriarchal values that should not apply anymore, and as Emma Watson said in her speech (which by the way, received such wonderful support from 4chan), when we eliminate patriarchal values such as masculinity and aggressiveness being intertwined, men can also be free to be themselves without fear of persecution. It started with women. That is why the term refers to women, and that is why you should call yourself a feminist, not an equal rights advocate. Let yourself be heard supporting women, and people will start to be less afraid to identify as feminists themselves.
    Last edited by Elfice; September 23rd, 2014 at 05:02 AM.
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  13. #63
    Pacha-cutie the Adorable Incan shiny stone's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfice View Post
    Good job justifying a nice dose of Islamaphobia by saying that you're against how misogynistic it is, while in the same breath, denying that women need more advocates for their rights. Classy.
    No I totally breathed in the middle, that's why its two paragraphs.
    [ sigh ]
    Look if you wanna help oppressed women you gotta distinguish real patriarchy (40% wage gap for equal work, education, voting, sexual liberties, autonomy, etc.) from a hodgepodge of residual post-feminist 'micro-oppressions' (7% wage gap for equal work, catcalling, memory triggers).

    I'd like to remind you of this topic. While it's true that "the reddest, Bible-thumpinest states have clinics that provide abortions to any woman during the first trimester", that does not mean that abortion is readily accessible (unconditional accessibility is the goal of the pro-choice movement, not legality - it's unconstitutional to ban all abortion thanks to Roe v. Wade). Let's look at some maps and numbers! For starters: the square mileage of Texas:


    Next, the amount of women in Texas:


    And finally, the location of the abortion clinics that do not have to shut down (since yes, the bill did get passed):


    You see the problem here?
    You have to consider where those women live - they aren't uniformly distributed across the state:


    If you don't, let me spell it out for you: unless you live in Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, or El Paso, there is not an abortion clinic that you can go to in the state of Texas that would be considered "local". You want to know how many women that stops from getting abortions in clinics, resulting in them having to either travel to one of those cities, or even worse, makes them consider back-alley, coat hanger, or self-mutilation abortions? Over 10 million. So just because there ARE clinics in Texas, that does not even come CLOSE to saying abortions are accessible in Texas, as the other (roughly) 267,279 square miles don't have one nearby. False equivalency. Say it with me! "Legality does not mean accessibility."
    No I'm not saying it with you. Know what's harder than driving an hour to the clinic? Paying for a kid for 18 years. If you're so concerned about it being too easy for men to exercise their autonomy then force men to sign the forms at an abortion clinic.

    It's because men are the ones who built society to cater to them - straight cisgender white men have every single right on the books. They do not need a movement to gain more rights. Do you know why? Because they're the ones who decided who gets what rights.
    Have you been paying attention to this thread at all?

  14. #64
    What Would Bayonetta Do? Forum Veteran Elfice's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    well for starters, catcalling is objectification of women, which, surprise surprise, does fall under the oppression of women! Learn what you're talking about.

    Secondly, you completely missed the point of what I was getting at when I mentioned the size of Texas and the incredibly large population. Before SB5, there were 44 clinics in Texas that were all reasonably placed so that no woman would have to go extremely out of her way to get an abortion (unfortunately, it's much harder to find a map of where they all were now that the law has changed, since most maps have been updated to reflect the real numbers). Now that the law has passed, there are six.

    Six abortion clinics for 12 million women, 10 million of which do not have one local. There is now an ENORMOUS strain on these 6 remaining clinics that have to service the entire female population of Texas. And that is not right.

    Also, wanna talk paying for a kid? Here are some expenses that parents face:
    • Diapers
    • Formula
    • Clothing
    • Food in general
    • School-related expenses (supplies, tutoring if necessary, etc.)
    • Medicine
    • Dental care
    • Orthodontal care
    • College


    That's just off the top of my head, but there are definitely more. Child support only covers a portion of these expenses, and not even a majority. Stop acting like men who have to pay child support are the victims in the situation, when they could have chosen to stay with the child. If he doesn't "consent" to fatherhood, then he should have wrapped it up. Condoms are cheap. Problem solved.

    Have you been paying attention to this thread at all?
    Have you been paying to society at all? Men are the lawmakers in this country. They're the ones deciding what women can and cannot do with their bodies. They're the ones deciding that marriage is between a man and a woman only. They're the ones who repeatedly try to disenfranchise minority voters in order to keep them from voting. Take a look around you. The world was made by and for men. And the time for that to end is now.

    And, lastly, I have to admit, I need you to clarify what you mean by forcing men to sign the forms at abortion clinics. Frankly, the statement makes zero sense, so please elaborate on what you mean.
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by RavThunderbird View Post
    To jump back a bit (a few hours) I would like to point something out.

    We really need to stop using blanket terms like feminism, because it feminism is, like Sparklesqueak said, women's rights, not equality. We really need to come up with a term that means gender equality that is more shortened (mostly because people are lazy and it is easier to say feminism or something that can be slurred into almost being a single syllable. If there was a fast and easy way to say gender equality It would probably make it catch on more instead of people just saying feminism.)

    In some ways, feminism has become a blanket statement for equality when it really is not.

    One could make the argument that modern feminism is equality, but its name only has one gender in it. That is still inequality and to some will perpetuate feminism being one sided in favor of women's equality or empowerment instead of the equal empowerment of everyone. (Most of this post is about the symbolism of feminism and very core beliefs of it more than the actual ideals of the majority of the people who want equality).
    I'll just put this here:


  16. #66
    To vex the world rather than divert it. Villerar's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by shiny stone View Post
    Have you been paying attention to this thread at all?
    Really, there aren't many points on which you have convinced the other side that there is so much anti-male inequality in rights. The most crucial one you pointed out is draft, which is however no longer in effect in vast swathes of North America, East and South-East Asia, Oceania, Sub-Saharan Africa and Europe. An academic definition of rape in terms of penetration ignores enveloping and is biased but doesn't affect rights (men have the same right to bodily integrity that women have, the relevant right in question). That the bias towards women in custody cases is unfair and not plausibly the result of other causes has not been established at all. And people agreed there are some cases in which men should not pay child support, which is/would be an economic right.

    So I think we have been paying attention. I count two things that involve rights that men lack, one of which is obsolete in the countries we come from. Hardly flagrant violation of men's rights.

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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    There are also abortion clinics in the state capital of Austin as well (and Austin is very much the most liberal city in Texas).
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    What Would Bayonetta Do? Forum Veteran Elfice's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    right, my bad, forgot to mention Austin in the post (it's funny not seeing Austin labeled on a map because it's not in the top 3 most populated cities in the state)

    though funnily enough, I remembered to include it in my math of women in Texas living in a city without an abortion clinic, but not San Antonio - the actual number should be 9.6 million. Whoops!
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  19. #69
    romance option Lady of the Arena Lenore's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by cyanide_ View Post
    The other truly contentious issue in this post is trans* rights, or how they fit into feminism. A lot of modern gender theory is fundamentally opposed to a binary formation of gender that trans* people often fall into. (there are also a lot of issues around mental health and how trans* people are evenly split between boys/girls at an early age but HUGELY spike in favour of teenage/adult men deciding to identify as women).
    I'm a little late on this, but yeah. Last semester I took a gender studies class taught by a radical feminist who had all sorts of... interesting beliefs about trans* people. The one which really rubbed me the wrong way was her contention that people who were assigned male at birth but dressed and acted female were essentially doing so out of sexual titillation - so, basically lumping legitimate trans* women in with transvestites and the like, and then making a huge and awful generalisation about it. (Her big case study was children who had come out as trans* at a young age, but later gone back on their decisions to transition. Also very very problematic for me, because, like... of course kids are kids and might not know as well as adults, but surely dysphoria and the like can actually surface that early? She also called it child abuse.) Here's a piece by a trans* advocacy site about some of the really awful things she's said, plus some of the wider problems of TERFs (trans*-exclusionary radical feminists) and their disavowal by some of the rest of the movement.
    Basically, while I understand how and why the gender binary is problematic in its absoluteness, it's really difficult for me to reconcile that with the fact that I do think being trans* is a real thing which needs to be taken seriously. So while I know that it's an incredibly contentious thing, I personally am very strongly of the belief that trans* women should definitely have a place and part in feminist movements.
    Last edited by Lenore; September 23rd, 2014 at 06:01 PM.

  20. #70
    Pacha-cutie the Adorable Incan shiny stone's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfice View Post
    well for starters, catcalling is objectification of women, which, surprise surprise, does fall under the oppression of women! Learn what you're talking about.
    Yup catcalling is absolutely on par with throwing acid on schoolgirls and stoning interfaith lovers. Get outta here with these exaggerations and smug putdowns. The proper feminist buzzword for catcalling is 'micro-oppression' because it isn't malicious or crippling enough to reasonably be called 'oppression'.

    Secondly, you completely missed the point of what I was getting at when I mentioned the size of Texas and the incredibly large population. Before SB5, there were 44 clinics in Texas that were all reasonably placed so that no woman would have to go extremely out of her way to get an abortion [...]. Now that the law has passed, there are six.
    Actually there are six cities with clinics. I count 18 clinics on your map. Let's check your population math:

    Six abortion clinics for 12 million women, 10 million of which do not have one local.
    Smells fishy. What are you calling "local"? The downtowns of these cities might have something like 2 million women. But it's not exactly oppressive to drive (or take the bus) downtown from a suburb. Including suburbs, the population (from Wikipedia) of the five TX metro areas with abortion clinics on your map is:

    -San Antonio 2,277,550
    -Houston 6,313,158
    -Austin 1,883,051
    -Dallas/Fort Worth/Arlington 6,810,913
    -El Paso 831,036

    total 18,115,708
    multiply by 50.3% to get:
    Texan women near an abortion clinic 9,112,201
    Texan women 13,303,441
    Over 2/3 of Texan women still have a local abortion clinic; the other third have to drive some 1-4 hours.

    Also, wanna talk paying for a kid? Here are some expenses that parents face:
    • waah
    • waaah

    Expecting diapers and stuff?

    That's just off the top of my head, but there are definitely more. Child support only covers a portion of these expenses, and not even a majority.
    Child support costs on average $6k/year times 18 years, for a total of over $100k. So abortion even in the worst case scenario (drive a few hours - *gasp* *faint*) is far less burdensome than even one year of a typical child support arrangement.

    Stop acting like men who have to pay child support are the victims in the situation, when they could have chosen to stay with the child.
    They were put into a terrible situation by someone else. That's practically the definition of a victim. You're saying these men aren't victims because they could have kept the children they never wanted? Ha. Firstly you just argued that staying with the child is way harder than paying child support. You don't lose victim status just because you had another even worse option. Secondly it is generally false that these men could have stayed with the child. Men would sometimes opt out of fatherhood because they're currently unfit to be fathers, and these men are even less likely than average to get custody of their kids.

    If he doesn't "consent" to fatherhood, then he should have wrapped it up. Condoms are cheap. Problem solved.
    It's not his job to prevent pregnancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karen Straughan
    Women have more and more effective non-permanent options with respect to preventing pregnancy and they have one hundred percent meaningful power of decision as to what level of risk they're willing to tolerate. When I say 'meaningful' I mean informed. A woman is fully capable of ascertaining every time, on a case by case basis, every time she has sex whether her partner is responsibly abiding by their mutual decision as to her acceptable level of personal risk; [...] if he's not doing that at any given time she can refuse to consent to sex based on her absolute and confirmable knowledge of the increased risk to her of pregnancy. Every time they have sex she's able to insist that he puts the friggin thing on - that he put it on properly - and therefore she can get meaningfully informed consent based on something other than his word.

    On the other hand be most common and most effective forms of birth control for women are not visible to the man. He really has no way of knowing and arguably no right to know if she's taking the pill properly or at all; if she's lying about it; if she went and had her IUD removed without telling him. Only she can know these things and he really has no way to independently absolutely confirmably determine whether she's living up to her share of their mutually agreed-upon measures to prevent pregnancy. For a man informed consent amounts to taking a woman at her word and trusting that she's being responsible, and he has no real meaningful wherewithal to protect himself from deceit, or to mitigate his own risks, because he really has no way of ascertaining for sure what those risks are.
    "Have you been paying attention to this thread at all?"

    Have you been paying to society at all? Men are the lawmakers in this country. They're the ones deciding what women can and cannot do with their bodies. They're the ones deciding that marriage is between a man and a woman only. They're the ones who repeatedly try to disenfranchise minority voters in order to keep them from voting. Take a look around you. The world was made by and for men. And the time for that to end is now.
    I'll take that as a 'no'.

    And, lastly, I have to admit, I need you to clarify what you mean by forcing men to sign the forms at abortion clinics. Frankly, the statement makes zero sense, so please elaborate on what you mean.
    You had some kind of problem with men being able to prevent legal fatherhood too easily. If men had to go to an abortion clinic, this would equalize the driving distances for both sexes to opt out of parenthood (not counting women's other options like the morning after pill, adoption, and safe abandonment). It would arbitrarily burden men and still leave us fewer reproductive rights than women, but it'd be a start.
    Last edited by shiny stone; September 23rd, 2014 at 09:03 PM.

  21. #71
    Clobberin Monster The Kirbinator's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    ...or in the case of Dallas or Houston, take the LRT and LRT is often faster than bus.

    After all, much of the poor rely on public transit and Dallas and Houston are no exceptions.
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  22. #72
    Goodbye, have a good life, all of you. RavThunderbird's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiffon View Post
    I'll just put this here:

    This picture is not at all explaining the problems of human rights, it is explaining feminism, and feminism alone. It addressed the problems that feminists have had and said that therefore all equality between the two genders should be labeled as the form of women's empowerment (which is what feminism actually is) and implied that feminism is more important than any of the problems related to masculinity just because it was a more prevalent issue than the problems of masculinity in the past as feminism problems at the time were much more drastic. Feminism does not equate to human rights, it means female empowerment which has absolutely nothing to do with equality. It is, simply said, one gender getting power (and in our case, a gender that recently has gotten power when previously at a disadvantage).

    That picture claims that it is dishonest to call human rights what it is because one group of the many included in human rights (and more specifically gender rights) has been previously disenfranchised at an unacceptable level, it says that because one group had bad things happen to it, rights between the two should only mean rights for the one of the two as both its name and policy suggest.

    You may say that the idea of feminism has changed but at it's core it has not, feminism means female empowerment and deals with a female paradigm, masculinism is male empowerment and at its core (which in the past has been morphed into masculine traits and men becoming the dominant group), gender rights and human rights mean equality, that no one is judged by gender or race or the such (gender specifically in regard to gender rights). Implying that gender rights should be purely identified as a feminism is incredibly hypocritical considering what what women have had to fight for to get their own rights, turning around and saying that my rights represent yours as well doesn't help.

    To say that feminism represents both gender's rights would be dishonest, it would ignore the whole other gender.

    Also that picture is addressing the term human rights in general so it is not completely relevant to the term gender rights (though it is partially).

  23. #73
    Putting a cap in your benefits Forum Moderator Superninfreak's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by shiny stone View Post
    Over 2/3 of Texan women still have a local abortion clinic; the other third have to drive some 1-4 hours.

    Child support costs on average $6k/year times 18 years, for a total of over $100k. So abortion even in the worst case scenario (drive a few hours - *gasp* *faint*) is far less burdensome than even one year of a typical child support arrangement.
    You seem to forget that many states, including Texas, have waiting periods before an abortion. Sometimes that means that two trips are necessary.

    So you'll need to take off work, drive there, and maybe get a hotel. And that's not even getting into other onerous regulations like mandatory trans-vaginal ultrasounds. Even if you deal with all that, you could run into aggressive protesters around the clinic, which can be very intimidating.

    You may think that that stuff's no big deal, but taking off work, driving for hours, getting a hotel room, and paying for the operation are incredibly difficult things for low-income women to do.

    It's relatively simple for high-income women to get abortions, and it always will be. But it's exponentially more difficult if you have a small income.

    You had some kind of problem with men being able to prevent legal fatherhood too easily. If men had to go to an abortion clinic, this would equalize the driving distances for both sexes to opt out of parenthood (not counting women's other options like the morning after pill, adoption, and safe abandonment). It would arbitrarily burden men and still leave us fewer reproductive rights than women, but it'd be a start.
    I think you're talking about me, not Elfice.

    Still, it wouldn't make things equal. There would still be the waiting periods and the cost of the procedure. You could get around that by requiring that stuff for men too, I guess.

    But there are still other issues. There is no way that signing a form is as invasive as a medical procedure. And signing a form has much less moral weight than having an abortion. So I still suspect that these opt-out forms would be used much more often than abortions.

    Not to mention the social stigma of having an abortion.
    Last edited by Superninfreak; September 23rd, 2014 at 09:25 PM.
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  24. #74
    Klaatu Barada Nikto Kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    shiny stone i just wanna say your "jokes" n &&&& are rude and don't really have a place in this conversation

    and late, but on the topic of the gender binary. i think a trans* person can be a trans* person, even if the gender binary is bull. being trans* means you were born physically male or female, but identify as whichever gender is traditionally the opposite. in cases where somebody is born male or female but identifies as no gender, both genders, or what have you the general term is genderqueer. for instance, my partner is genderfluid, meaning their gender identity fluctuates between male, female, and neither. thus, though the gender binary is balogna, being trans* is legitimate.

  25. #75
    To vex the world rather than divert it. Villerar's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by shiny stone View Post
    Yup catcalling is absolutely on par with throwing acid on schoolgirls and stoning interfaith lovers. Get outta here with these exaggerations and smug putdowns. The proper feminist buzzword for catcalling is 'micro-oppression' because it isn't malicious or crippling enough to reasonably be called 'oppression'.
    Nobody said that catcalling is equivalent to throwing acid on women or stoning people, so saying that he should go away with "these exaggerations and smug putdowns" is without a referent, and potentially steers close to a straw man.

    There is more wrong with this, but I will get to that later.

    Quote Originally Posted by shiny stone View Post
    I'll take that as a 'no'.
    There is this thing with "people", "glass houses" and "stones".

    Only relatively few of the things that concern you have actually been substantiated to such a degree that our side has accepted them. I have already pointed this out, so, while you don't have to reply to my posts, it would be sort of nice if you don't continue to claim things as fact that have actually been called into question.

    Quote Originally Posted by shiny stone View Post
    You had some kind of problem with men being able to prevent legal fatherhood too easily. If men had to go to an abortion clinic, this would equalize the driving distances for both sexes to opt out of parenthood (not counting women's other options like the morning after pill, adoption, and safe abandonment). It would arbitrarily burden men and still leave us fewer reproductive rights than women, but it'd be a start.
    And this framing of freedom from child support duties in specified cases as a form of male reproductive rights has also been contested. This is Wikipedia's definition, claimed to be from the WHO:

    Reproductive rights rest on the recognition of the basic right of all couples and individuals to decide freely and responsibly the number, spacing and timing of their children and to have the information and means to do so, and the right to attain the highest standard of sexual and reproductive health. They also include the right of all to make decisions concerning reproduction free of discrimination, coercion and violence.
    The legal and economic right to forfeit legal fatherhood and avoid having to pay child support does not affect biological reproduction, it does not affect the number, spacing and timing of children (except in strange scenarios). Claiming that it falls under reproductive rights is a MRA frame. The reproductive right is to use a condom (and in the future to use a contraceptive pill for males). Yes, there is an imbalance in this respect favouring women, but there is no female monopoly in this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavThunderbird View Post
    This picture is not at all explaining the problems of human rights, it is explaining feminism, and feminism alone. It addressed the problems that feminists have had and said that therefore all equality between the two genders should be labeled as the form of women's empowerment (which is what feminism actually is) and implied that feminism is more important than any of the problems related to masculinity just because it was a more prevalent issue than the problems of masculinity in the past as feminism problems at the time were much more drastic. Feminism does not equate to human rights, it means female empowerment which has absolutely nothing to do with equality. It is, simply said, one gender getting power (and in our case, a gender that recently has gotten power when previously at a disadvantage).

    That picture claims that it is dishonest to call human rights what it is because one group of the many included in human rights (and more specifically gender rights) has been previously disenfranchised at an unacceptable level, it says that because one group had bad things happen to it, rights between the two should only mean rights for the one of the two as both its name and policy suggest.

    You may say that the idea of feminism has changed but at it's core it has not, feminism means female empowerment and deals with a female paradigm, masculinism is male empowerment and at its core (which in the past has been morphed into masculine traits and men becoming the dominant group), gender rights and human rights mean equality, that no one is judged by gender or race or the such (gender specifically in regard to gender rights). Implying that gender rights should be purely identified as a feminism is incredibly hypocritical considering what what women have had to fight for to get their own rights, turning around and saying that my rights represent yours as well doesn't help.

    To say that feminism represents both gender's rights would be dishonest, it would ignore the whole other gender.

    Also that picture is addressing the term human rights in general so it is not completely relevant to the term gender rights (though it is partially).
    You advocated that we would stop using the word "feminism" in favour of a new word for equal gender rights. The picture does give reasons to retain "feminism".

    I think there is some merit in using additional terms for a variety of gender issues, but surely "feminism" can and should coexist alongside that. In our society, there are plenty of issues that disadvantage women to be addressed. And a number of problems that affect men are directly linked to historical patriarchal values, directly tying in with feminism.

    While the name of feminism indeed focuses on women's rights, nothing in the name suggests that rights between females and males should only mean rights for females. And feminist policies contradict at least sometimes what you say: for example, feminists have been leading the initiative for paternity leave in my country. To my knowledge, MRAs have only been sniping about that from the sideline.

    For reference:

    Quote Originally Posted by Chiffon View Post
    I'll just put this here:

    So I said I would return to some earlier quote. It is completely too long and elaborate for a response to a short quote, as it touches directly upon a pet peeve of mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by shiny stone View Post
    Yup catcalling is absolutely on par with throwing acid on schoolgirls and stoning interfaith lovers. Get outta here with these exaggerations and smug putdowns. The proper feminist buzzword for catcalling is 'micro-oppression' because it isn't malicious or crippling enough to reasonably be called 'oppression'.
    My other gripe with this is the claim that catcalling is not "malicious or crippling enough to reasonably be called 'oppression'". If we ignore the context-dependence of how malicious or crippling catcalling is for a moment, that might be true if something like an instance of catcalling was an isolated incident. But it isn't.

    Catcalling is part of a spectrum of sexual harassment that goes via slurs all the way to assault and rape, including the most violent forms of rape, some of which result in the victim's death. It is also part of social life, in which the entire spectrum is in evidence, things like catcalling being the most common, assault and rape being less common and the most brutal types of rape being less common still. That sexual harassment spectrum ties in with regressive beliefs about women some people in society hold and to which women are also exposed.

    A complex of harmful beliefs held by some of the populace combined with harmful practices can produce an oppressive atmosphere. I have some examples of such structures that make people feel oppressed, but I first want to underscore that I disclaim moral equivalence between those examples and the modern oppressive complex against women. The examples solely serve to illustrate a function.

    One such example is the oppression of black people in some parts of the US during the Jim Crow era. Yes, there is in the current case no equivalent to lynching and legally enforced segregation of that time, but this also featured the lower echelons of harmful beliefs and practices, like racist slurs. They all have a role in making somebody "know his/her place", with the lower end reminding and reinforcing the repressed person's inferior status. Another example would be the repression of Copts in Mamluke Egypt for centuries. Again, in this case Coptic Christians had a legally inferior status and the Mamlukes were extremely active in enforcing physical oppression (destruction of churches and homes, actual persecution), so that is a relevant difference. But there was also a wide spectrum of minor restrictions (like prohibitions against riding on a horse) that all served to reinforce, again, an inferior status. If somebody crossed such a restriction (or just if enough people were sufficiently deluded to think someone did), either the government or a mob could hit the 'perpetrator' or a larger or even a totally different group of the minority with, often deadly, violence. Similar scenarios could be adduced for much of the Eastern Mediterranean from the third to the twenty-first century about the oppression of various groups, for various parts of medieval Europe about the oppression against Jews and for honestly the oppression of a ton of other groups.

    So you can oppress a large group without constantly resorting to the most visible and evil methods. And I think that, contrary to the above examples, you don't even need a government behind you to do it. It requires oppressive beliefs and lesser practices to rub in the lessons of the occasional outbreak of violence. And for sexual harassment against women it doesn't even require a hostile majority. Catcalling is one element within the wider structure. It reminds you of what can happen.

    Now, do you still think it is inappropriate to call catcalling "oppression"?
    Last edited by Villerar; October 27th, 2014 at 12:27 PM. Reason: Left a sentence hanging

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