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Thread: Equal rights between men and women

  1. #1
    The Villager of Death
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    Equal rights between men and women

    Good lord what am I doing this subject is so controversial
    So here we can discuss our opinions on whether or not Men and Women have equal rights etc.
    Now please don't kill me for starting this
    EDIT: I meant to include a poll, can someone help me put that in?

  2. #2
    What Would Bayonetta Do? Forum Veteran Elfice's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    honestly there's not much to say - men have 100% bodily autonomy, get paid more for doing the exact same jobs with the exact same qualifications, and don't immediately have to fear for their lives when they're walking alone at night or drunk off their ass at bars with no friends around.

    women do not have those luxuries
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  3. #3
    Klaatu Barada Nikto Kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    dude why would you make this topic

    but like elfice said there's absolutely no question about this. unlike sexualization/objectification, which is open to opinion, the pure fact is that women's rights are limited compared to men's, no question.

  4. #4
    Star Warrior SBSam's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    I concur with all of Kiwi's and Elfice's points. Need I bring up the suffrage movement and the many, many women's rights organizations today? It's not a matter of "DO MEN AND WOMEN HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS?". It's more "WHY DON'T MEN AND WOMEN HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS?", but that's not this topic.

    This topic is much like a trying to toss a tipless spear; there's no point, and you just gave the other guy something blunt to counter with. I see no reason for this to remain up.

  5. #5
    The Villager of Death
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfice View Post
    honestly there's not much to say - men have 100% bodily autonomy, get paid more for doing the exact same jobs with the exact same qualifications, and don't immediately have to fear for their lives when they're walking alone at night or drunk off their ass at bars with no friends around.

    women do not have those luxuries
    I'm gonna become the most hated person on the forums for saying this
    For every dollar a man makes, a woman makes 77 cents.
    For every dollar a woman makes, a man makes 77 cents.
    For every 100 dollars a woman makes, a man makes nothing.
    For every 100 dollars a man makes, a woman makes nothing.
    These stats were all made by comparing women and men with completely different work fields, work times, and experiences in said work fields.

    I actually want you guys to name all the rights you can think of men have that women don't.

  6. #6
    hey sinnerman where you gonna run to Forum Veteran Eruedraith's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    uh, no, those stats were compiled by professional economists and are generally accepted as true.
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    He were not hanged. He would not answer aye or nay to his indictment; for if he denied the charge they'd hang him surely, and auction out his property. So he stand mute, and died Christian under the law. And so his sons will have his farm. It is the law, for he could not be con-demned a wizard without he answer the indictment, aye or nay... Great stones they lay upon his chest until he plead aye or nay. They say he give them but two words. "More weight," he says. And died.


  7. #7
    The Villager of Death
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruedraith View Post
    uh, no, those stats were compiled by professional economists and are generally accepted as true.
    Well the first one on the list is considered true by some people , the rest is comparing men and women with completely different jobs.

  8. #8
    What Would Bayonetta Do? Forum Veteran Elfice's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    it IS true - if you send identical resumes to a company, one from John Smith and one from Jane Smith, John Smith is going to be offered more money - it's been investigated and uncovered countless times

    and as for straight up rights men have that women don't, complete bodily autonomy
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  9. #9
    Klaatu Barada Nikto Kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    So none of them are true, except after you got proven wrong, then "okay one is true but not the rest i swear"

    Quote Originally Posted by you
    I actually want you guys to name all the rights you can think of men have that women don't.
    men have complete reproductive/body control rights, for one.

    edit: elfice beat me to it.

  10. #10
    The Villager of Death
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfice View Post
    it IS true - if you send identical resumes to a company, one from John Smith and one from Jane Smith, John Smith is going to be offered more money - it's been investigated and uncovered countless times

    and as for straight up rights men have that women don't, complete bodily autonomy

    ^Just pointing that out for evidence that can be used in a future argument, though I'd like to point out Brian Bank's kickstarter was eventually funded (barely)
    This image I found online also sums something up pretty well:

  11. #11
    Klaatu Barada Nikto Kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Wowwee you found an memesite picture of two completely unrelated examples with horribly different contexts and presented them as flimsy evidence.

    And I have yet to hear of a single human being being forced to partake in a war in the USA in the last, say, several decades.

  12. #12
    The Villager of Death
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
    Wowwee you found an memesite picture of two completely unrelated examples with horribly different contexts and presented them as flimsy evidence.

    And I have yet to hear of a single human being being forced to partake in a war in the USA in the last, say, several decades.
    The fact remains it could still happen at any time.

  13. #13
    Klaatu Barada Nikto Kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    The fact remains that you're using a hypothetical that isn't likely to ever be seriously enforced again as a piece of evidence despite it not being relevant at all.

  14. #14
    Pika Power Sparklesqueak's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    One of the few advantages women have legally over men is that, assuming that local abortion laws aren't draconian, a woman may choose whether or not to get an abortion, but a man cannot require a woman to get an abortion, so ultimately the man has no say in whether or not he will be supporting a child. Actually, not no say, because avoiding sex would have avoided this problem in the first place.

    Does that mean that women have more rights than men, even in just this context? Heck no. The woman still has to either undergo an abortion or carry a baby to term. Men still get off relatively easily.

  15. #15
    Putting a cap in your benefits Forum Moderator Superninfreak's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Mind if I salvage this topic?

    I think that gender rights are different from rights for other social categories (like race, sexual orientation, etc.)

    For most groups, the socially dominant group (whites/straights/whatever) was superior in rights in basically every way until people demanded civil rights for the disadvantaged group.

    For women and men, it's different. Prior to women gaining civil rights, they didn't just have less rights than men, they had different rights. Men had certain rights that women lacked and vice versa.

    NOTE: I am not saying that women and men had equivalent rights. Women by far had fewer rights than men, and they still do today.

    However, there are a couple areas where women have an advantage over men. It's still socially frowned upon for a man to do "feminine" things. This is particularly frustrating when it comes to childcare. A stay-at-home mom gets more respect than a stay-at-home dad.

    Of course, it's all based on patriarchal gender roles, which need to be torn down. I'm just saying that it doesn't all go in one direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparklesqueak View Post
    One of the few advantages women have legally over men is that, assuming that local abortion laws aren't draconian, a woman may choose whether or not to get an abortion, but a man cannot require a woman to get an abortion, so ultimately the man has no say in whether or not he will be supporting a child. Actually, not no say, because avoiding sex would have avoided this problem in the first place.

    Does that mean that women have more rights than men, even in just this context? Heck no. The woman still has to either undergo an abortion or carry a baby to term. Men still get off relatively easily.
    Well, there are a lot of restrictions placed upon abortion, especially in Republican-controlled states.

    That is a problem, but I don't see how it can really be solved. Unfortunately biology isn't perfectly egalitarian.
    Last edited by Superninfreak; September 18th, 2014 at 01:13 PM.
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  16. #16
    Goodbye, have a good life, all of you. RavThunderbird's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    I am going to point out something that all of you are ignoring. The topic said rights, not social norms/issues.

    Remember that men typically getting paid more than women is not always a given, and the statistics ignore things like qualification (what if women typically choose go to schools that have less reputable programs? What if?) There are more variables, I am not saying that women never get paid less for the same job as a man, I am saying the statistics are not exactly well defined which lowers accuracy (that goes for a lot of statistics actually).

    Back to what I said in the first sentence, the majority of what has been brought up in this discussion towards the point of women having less rights are social issues not legal issues. They are issues none the less but they have practically nothing to do with someone's actual rights as a citizen on the U.S.

    Overall I would say that men have less actual rights, but the system disadvantages both sexes at the same time but in different ways (typically, remember, court rooms are not known for being particularly unbiased.)

  17. #17
    Putting a cap in your benefits Forum Moderator Superninfreak's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by RavThunderbird View Post
    Overall I would say that men have less actual rights, but the system disadvantages both sexes at the same time but in different ways (typically, remember, court rooms are not known for being particularly unbiased.)
    Could you elaborate here?
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  18. #18
    Philosophy Unaniem's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    One interesting point of discussion I've seen brought up somewhere before was that catcalling, often seen as a sexist practice, isn't so much sexism as it is general disrespectful behaviour not related to rights or patriarchy.

    What is you guys' opinion on this statement?
    Could it be 'fixed' or otherwise improved on?

  19. #19
    Putting a cap in your benefits Forum Moderator Superninfreak's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Unaniem View Post
    One interesting point of discussion I've seen brought up somewhere before was that catcalling, often seen as a sexist practice, isn't so much sexism as it is general disrespectful behaviour not related to rights or patriarchy.

    What is you guys' opinion on this statement?
    Could it be 'fixed' or otherwise improved on?
    If men were catcalled at anywhere near the rates women are you'd have a point. But men very rarely get catcalled.
    "Have killed many, Shepard. Many methods. Gunfire, knives, drugs, tech attacks, once with farming equipment. But not with medicine." Mordin Solus, Mass Effect 2


  20. #20
    hey sinnerman where you gonna run to Forum Veteran Eruedraith's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Superninfreak View Post
    Could you elaborate here?
    I think he's talking about the bias against men in child custody cases and lack of attention towards male rape cases.

    Possibly.
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    He were not hanged. He would not answer aye or nay to his indictment; for if he denied the charge they'd hang him surely, and auction out his property. So he stand mute, and died Christian under the law. And so his sons will have his farm. It is the law, for he could not be con-demned a wizard without he answer the indictment, aye or nay... Great stones they lay upon his chest until he plead aye or nay. They say he give them but two words. "More weight," he says. And died.


  21. #21
    What Would Bayonetta Do? Forum Veteran Elfice's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    the bias against men in custody cases is honestly their own doing - while a judge will rarely separate a YOUNG child from their mother, when the kids are older, courts tend to favor the fathers, so long as they decide to fight for custody. but many men don't even bother because they THINK the courts are biased towards them, and so it seems like the courts favor the mothers in custody cases.

    and rav, just because abortion is a social issue doesn't mean it doesn't fall under a right that they don't have - it's still a lack of complete control of every aspect of their body, which men DO have. everyone deserves to have complete control of what goes on with their body, regardless of whether or not that body is capable of fostering life or not.
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  22. #22
    Klaatu Barada Nikto Kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Like Elfice said, the bias in custody cases isn't actually a thing. It all depends on age and if the fathers actually try.

    I can safetly say that as a male I have never been cat called, but my friends, partner and even just random strangers get
    get cat called so often it's sickening, because they are female.

  23. #23
    Pacha-cutie the Adorable Incan shiny stone's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfice View Post
    the bias against men in custody cases is honestly their own doing - while a judge will rarely separate a YOUNG child from their mother, when the kids are older, courts tend to favor the fathers, so long as they decide to fight for custody. but many men don't even bother because they THINK the courts are biased towards them, and so it seems like the courts favor the mothers in custody cases.
    US family courts award sole custody to the mother 4x more often than to the father when they both go to trial seeking custody. This source is some 20 years old, so I'm open to newer evidence, but it suggests that family courts are heavily biased against men.

    and rav, just because abortion is a social issue doesn't mean it doesn't fall under a right that they don't have - it's still a lack of complete control of every aspect of their body, which men DO have. everyone deserves to have complete control of what goes on with their body, regardless of whether or not that body is capable of fostering life or not.
    Besides the obvious counterexample of forced selective service (the draft), men legally consent to parenthood anytime they have sex (or get raped!), while women can legally opt out via morning after pill, abortion, adoption, or abandonment at a safe haven. So the broader sphere of reproductive rights actually favors women.

    [Men] get paid more for doing the exact same jobs with the exact same qualifications
    Prove it! I think the wage gap for equivalent work+qualifications is around 3%, not 23%.

    [Men] don't immediately have to fear for their lives when they're walking alone at night or drunk off their ass at bars with no friends around
    Actually women are about 1.7 times less likely to be victimised by violence and less than half as likely to be murdered.

    Men also face harsher criminal sentences and exclusion from victim relief services.

  24. #24
    Goodbye, have a good life, all of you. RavThunderbird's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    Quote Originally Posted by RavThunderbird View Post
    Overall I would say that men have less actual rights, but the system disadvantages both sexes at the same time but in different ways (typically, remember, court rooms are not known for being particularly unbiased.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Superninfreak View Post
    Could you elaborate here?
    Excluding the states that have things like anti-abortion laws there are virtually no (as far as I know) legal rights that men have over women. Men have the draft, several rape laws, and more against them (most of which i believe has already been highlighted in this thread).

    As four the court's stuff, what I said mostly has do do with how statistics show how courts are bias towards either men or women are favored or disfavored in regard to certain types of crimes (statistics can be fickle as I stated above though.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfice View Post
    and rav, just because abortion is a social issue doesn't mean it doesn't fall under a right that they don't have - it's still a lack of complete control of every aspect of their body, which men DO have. everyone deserves to have complete control of what goes on with their body, regardless of whether or not that body is capable of fostering life or not.
    To answer I will just use a quote from someone else fore earlier (I was speaking under the assumption that said state allows abortion, sorry, should have pointed that out (or even thought of it)).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparklesqueak View Post
    One of the few advantages women have legally over men is that, assuming that local abortion laws aren't draconian, a woman may choose whether or not to get an abortion, but a man cannot require a woman to get an abortion, so ultimately the man has no say in whether or not he will be supporting a child. Actually, not no say, because avoiding sex would have avoided this problem in the first place.

    Again, rights versus social bias guys.

  25. #25
    romance option Lady of the Arena Lenore's Avatar
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    Re: Equal rights between men and women

    *kicks down door* intersectional feminism in the HOUSE
    Right, so I'm of the belief that having a conversation about feminism/sexism without taking into account how it interacts with other systems of privilege and disenfranchisement like race and class is frankly unfair. That statistic about women only earning 77 cents for every dollar a man makes, for instance? That's white women. African-American women earn 64 cents for every 100, and Hispanic women just 54. Remember that next time you see it being thrown around (and it is always thrown around).
    Either way, I think it's inarguable that gender affects people differently based on factors such as race and class (especially since, in our world, these two are becoming more and more inextricable). Three quick examples:
    1. Women of colour are both stereotyped and fetishised in a way white women don't have to endure. I unfortunately can't find quite the article I was looking for, but my example of choice is how Asian women tend to be fetishised as being submissive, feminine and exotic in a way that's disgusting and dehumanising.
    2. Women of colour are viewed as being "unrapeable". While I'm still trying to get my head around this one myself, I think it essentially boils down to this (and here's a pretty solid source about it): stereotypes of women of colour exist which rob them of consent and place them in a state where they are viewed as always consenting. (I forget the source, but I read an argument once about how, for example, with African-American women it's rooted in attitudes about slavery). It's compounded by the fact that the sexual assault of women of colour is seldom reported, let alone on the scale which the assault of white women is. The low visibility of women of colour in general and their assaults is... ugh.
    3. Trans women have to experience a whole host of really icky stuff that those who are assigned female at birth don't have to. Remember, a lot of people still don't believe that trans folks exist or take them seriously; I know how lucky I am that my womanhood has never been called into question.

    I just... feel really strongly about not shutting out the voices of women who aren't white, affluent, straight or cisgendered.


    Quote Originally Posted by Unaniem View Post
    One interesting point of discussion I've seen brought up somewhere before was that catcalling, often seen as a sexist practice, isn't so much sexism as it is general disrespectful behaviour not related to rights or patriarchy.
    With all due respect: bull&&&&. Excuses like this are always designed for people to be able to say "oh, it's not misogyny!" when that's actually just a convenient way of shifting the blame.
    Parallel example: did you know I was sexually harassed on a tram once? I was going home alone on a Friday night after having dinner with friends, and wound up standing near a group of drunk young men who were sitting with their eyes level with my legs. They began to talk to me, and I really didn't want to speak to them, but as a girl alone I felt like trying to leave would just escalate the situation. So they asked me to give them a look up my skirt because "you're in a short skirt and horny boots [thigh-high boots?], somebody's gonna ask to look". I refused, of course. As they were getting off the tram, one of them got in my personal space before I could blink, said "thanks for being such a good sport about it" and kissed me on the cheek. I could only stand there, stock-still and utterly disgusted, as they left. Not only had my "being a good sport" been something out of my control, since ignoring them or asking them to leave me alone would only, in my perception, have made things worse for me than just going along and participating - but the absolute violation of my boundaries made me actually feel ill.
    Now, is this not so much sexism as it is just young men being disrespectful while drunk, regardless of context or rights or patriarchy? Of course not. If it was just disrespect I wouldn't have gotten home and collapsed, shivering and crying, pretty much unable to move until my boyfriend arrived to console me. If it was just disrespect, I wouldn't have felt so unfairly victimised by forces beyond my control. If it was just disrespect, I wouldn't have been subjected to this while in the middle of a tram full of people, none of whom said a thing. There's always more at work than simply people just being dicks, and to miss the forest for the trees is seriously problematic.
    Last edited by Lenore; September 18th, 2014 at 05:02 PM.

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